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Old 11-09-2012, 10:17 AM   #551
lothar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I don't have any sympathy for carriers either. I'm just saying that Google's approach here is odd, because the carriers and retailers are pretty powerful money-making partners.

Now, instead of having the carriers subsidize the phone, Google is doing it themselves, while burning bridges with its partners.


If true, I'd like to see Google seriously improve the power management characteristics of the Nexus 4. Such CPU behaviour seems like a rushed and half-assed implementation.
Can you prove that they are? Which of their partners have left or considered leaving, and where will such a partner go to?
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:23 AM   #552
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I already provided a link. Some European retailers have already said they refuse to carry the Nexus 4.

The reason for this is because the MSRP is €549 to €599 (depending on the country), which suggests to me that the phone is close to €500 wholesale. That makes no sense to a retailer when it costs much less than that at Google Play. The phone is €299 to €349 at Google Play.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:31 AM   #553
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I already provided a link. Some European retailers have already said they refuse to carry the Nexus 4.

The reason for this is because the MSRP is 599 Euros, which suggests to me that he phone itself is over 500 Euros wholesale or else close to it. That makes no sense to a retailer when it costs much less than that at Google Play.
Your link proved otherwise.
Google isn't the one alienating their partners, LG is.

Read your article again.
LG sets the MSRP of the Nexus at retail stores, Google sets the MSRP of the Nexus at it's Play Store.
Google didn't sign any deals to have retail stores carry the Nexus 4, it was LG that did.
LG is the one with retailers as it's partners, not Google.

Last edited by lothar; 11-09-2012 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:36 AM   #554
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Your link proved otherwise.
Google isn't the one alienating their partners, LG is.

Read your article again.
LG sets the MSRP of the Nexus at retail stores, Google sets the MSRP of the Nexus at it's Play Store.
Irrelevant. You're arguing technical details. I'm arguing big picture.

Google is heavily subsidizing the LG manufactured phone, thereby alienating retailers. End result is that retailers have refused to carry the Nexus 4, which is Google branding BTW.

Personally, I'm happy about that, because it makes my purchase decision in November much easier. I am more than willing to gamble on a phone that reportedly has implementation issues (CPU speed and battery life), is bigger than I prefer, and which lacks LTE, given that it's so cheap. Instead of having to spend $600-700 on an unlocked phone or re-sign another 3-year phone contract, I can get a $359 unlocked flagship phone.

However, that doesn't mean I quite understand Google's approach here. Is capturing our market share really that important? I mean they didn't even do this in a consistent manner. Really, a phone that goes for €349 or €599 depending on which e-tailer you happen to choose? Wat?
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:39 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Irrelevant. You're arguing technical details. I'm arguing big picture.

Google is heavily subsidizing the LG manufactured phone, thereby alienating retailers.

Personally, I'm happy about that, because it makes my purchase decision in November much easier. I am more than willing to gamble on a phone that reportedly has implementation issues (CPU speed and battery life) and is bigger than I prefer, given that it's so cheap. Instead of having to spend $600-700 on an unlocked phone or re-sign another 3-year phone contract, I can get a $359 unlocked phone.

However, that doesn't mean I quite understand Google's approach here. Is capturing our market share really that important? I mean they didn't even do this in a consistent manner. Really, a phone that goes for 349 or 599 depending on which e-tailer you happen to choose? Wat?
He answered your question, it's LG not Google.

The Nexus 4 is not heavily subsidized by Google, unless you think that these phones cost $600 to make...
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:40 AM   #556
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Not disagreeing, but what reason does Google have to discourage people making 2 year commitments to cell phone carriers ?

Is it possible they have plans to become a carrier, with a new non-contract paradigm ?
I think Verizon added some crap to their version of the Galaxy "Nexus". And isn't one or some of the carriers blocking Google wallet?

I don't think the carriers are a friend of Google's (or consumers for that matter).

Since it's an unlocked phone, sold outside the carriers influence, the carriers can't tamper with the phone like they have in the past. And Google needed to drop the price because, as mentioned by others, people only see subsidized prices. So this $350 Nexus 4 is competing against $200 iPhone 5 and Galaxy S 3. I don't think there is any chance of the Nexus 4 out selling those two phones at all, even remotely.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:44 AM   #557
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So this $350 Nexus 4 is competing against $200 iPhone 5 and Galaxy S 3.
No it's not. It's $350 contract-less Nexus 4, competing against a $200 iPhone 5/Galaxy S III requiring a 2-year (or 3-year) contract and that's locked that specific carrier. Not even remotely comparable, and most consumers understand that.

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I don't think there is any chance of the Nexus 4 out selling those two phones at all, even remotely.
I agree. Why? Because Google has not been able to negotiate deals with the carriers for this phone.

If they had, and added LTE to some models, this phone could have been the #1 or #2 selling phone in 2013.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:47 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by Ravynmagi View Post
I think Verizon added some crap to their version of the Galaxy "Nexus". And isn't one or some of the carriers blocking Google wallet?

I don't think the carriers are a friend of Google's (or consumers for that matter).

Since it's an unlocked phone, sold outside the carriers influence, the carriers can't tamper with the phone like they have in the past. And Google needed to drop the price because, as mentioned by others, people only see subsidized prices. So this $350 Nexus 4 is competing against $200 iPhone 5 and Galaxy S 3. I don't think there is any chance of the Nexus 4 out selling those two phones at all, even remotely.
Hey, Apple's pretty tough on clamping down. They deploy updates across ALL phones regardless of network simultaneously. They also control that the software is exactly the same across all their iPhones.

Sure Apple couldn't prevent fragmentation and there are 3 models of iPhones now. There were 2 models before. But even then it's able to bridge the experience seamlessly across all models.

I don't see Google accomplishing the same with the Galaxy Nexus. I'm pretty sure Apple put a STFU Verizon clause in there saying that they're in charge of managing the updates and the carrier has to put up or shut up. Don't know why Google can't exact those kind of terms.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:49 AM   #559
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Hey, Apple's pretty tough on clamping down. They deploy updates across ALL phones regardless of network simultaneously. They also control that the software is exactly the same across all their iPhones.

Sure Apple couldn't prevent fragmentation and there are 3 models of iPhones now. There were 2 models before. But even then it's able to bridge the experience seamlessly across all models.

I don't see Google accomplishing the same with the Galaxy Nexus. I'm pretty sure Apple put a STFU Verizon clause in there saying that they're in charge of managing the updates and the carrier has to put up or shut up. Don't know why Google can't exact those kind of terms.
Because google has nowhere near the power that apple does? I'm pretty sure this forum has discussed this over and over and over again for the past 2 years, and I refuse to think you haven't figure this out yet.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:50 AM   #560
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I don't think the nexus line carries enough weight to demand the same things that Apple does for the iphone. Carriers will have plenty of android phones anyway so they aren't going to give up their control for another one even if it is a nexus phone.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:51 AM   #561
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Don't know why Google can't exact those kind of terms.
You know exactly why. Stop trying to fit Android through an iOS shaped peg.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:52 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by DLeRium View Post
Hey, Apple's pretty tough on clamping down. They deploy updates across ALL phones regardless of network simultaneously. They also control that the software is exactly the same across all their iPhones.

Sure Apple couldn't prevent fragmentation and there are 3 models of iPhones now. There were 2 models before. But even then it's able to bridge the experience seamlessly across all models.

I don't see Google accomplishing the same with the Galaxy Nexus. I'm pretty sure Apple put a STFU Verizon clause in there saying that they're in charge of managing the updates and the carrier has to put up or shut up. Don't know why Google can't exact those kind of terms.
Yup. The "Google didn't want xxx carrier to tamper with the phone" argument doesn't really fly anymore, considering that Apple has been able to keep the iPhone experience pretty pure for several years now.

Then again it's probably Google's own fault. They've been pushing this "openness" so long it's bitten them in the ass, with stuff like the bloated Samsung versions of Android, and overall a horrendously fragmented Android market.

OTOH, they do sell a lot of Android phones though, even though it's a fragmented market. 1 Android phone = 1 more set of mined consumer data.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:58 AM   #563
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Then again it's probably Google's own fault. They've been pushing this "openness" so long it's bitten them in the ass, with stuff like the bloated Samsung versions of Android, and overall a horrendously fragmented Android market.
Nope.

I could go over things like older iPhones getting updates in name only (lacking many of the actual new features of said update), or talk about how Apple is the sole provider of the hardware and software of iOS and how that is a big difference from how Android works, but it's been discussed to death and any regular to this forum already knows all this.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:59 AM   #564
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Irrelevant. You're arguing technical details. I'm arguing big picture.

Google is heavily subsidizing the LG manufactured phone, thereby alienating retailers. End result is that retailers have refused to carry the Nexus 4, which is Google branding BTW.

Personally, I'm happy about that, because it makes my purchase decision in November much easier. I am more than willing to gamble on a phone that reportedly has implementation issues (CPU speed and battery life), is bigger than I prefer, and which lacks LTE, given that it's so cheap. Instead of having to spend $600-700 on an unlocked phone or re-sign another 3-year phone contract, I can get a $359 unlocked flagship phone.

However, that doesn't mean I quite understand Google's approach here. Is capturing our market share really that important? I mean they didn't even do this in a consistent manner. Really, a phone that goes for 349 or 599 depending on which e-tailer you happen to choose? Wat?
The technical details I argued are the facts.
Your "big picture" isn't.

The Nexus 4 isn't being subsidized by Google, period.
It is sold exactly at cost or near cost.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:08 AM   #565
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No it's not. It's $350 contract-less Nexus 4, competing against a $200 iPhone 5/Galaxy S III requiring a 2-year (or 3-year) contract and that's locked that specific carrier. Not even remotely comparable, and most consumers understand that.


I agree. Why? Because Google has not been able to negotiate deals with the carriers for this phone.

If they had, and added LTE to some models, this phone could have been the #1 or #2 selling phone in 2013.
No way that would've happened with LTE. Remember Galaxy Nexus had LTE version for Verizon and later Sprint. It was Verizon's first Nexus phone and first Nexus with LTE. The Verizon experiment was a failure, in both sales and support. It was because of Google's unpleasant experience with Verizon Galaxy Nexus that Google decided not to include LTE for Nexus 4. So if you want someone to blame for LTE on the Nexus 4, point your finger at Verizon.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:09 AM   #566
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The technical details I argued are the facts.
Your "big picture" isn't.

The Nexus 4 isn't being subsidized by Google, period.
It is sold exactly at cost or near cost.
If you were correct, then why isn't the phone available near that price, anywhere other than Google Play?

If we use the example of the Nexus 7, it was $249 at Google Play, and guess what? It was also $249 at big retailers. In fact it was cheaper at the big retailers because you didn't have to pay the shipping charge for it.

With the Nexus 4, it's a completely different story. $349 Euros, vs. $599 Euros.


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No way that would've happened with LTE. Remember Galaxy Nexus had LTE version for Verizon and later Sprint. It was Verizon's first Nexus phone and first Nexus with LTE. The Verizon experiment was a failure, in both sales and support. It was because of Google's unpleasant experience with Verizon Galaxy Nexus that Google decided not to include LTE for Nexus 4. So if you want someone to blame for LTE on the Nexus 4, point your finger at Verizon.
Verizon isn't the only LTE carrier in the world.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:11 AM   #567
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Verizon isn't the only LTE carrier in the world.
It's the only one that matters right now.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:13 AM   #568
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No it's not. It's $350 contract-less Nexus 4, competing against a $200 iPhone 5/Galaxy S III requiring a 2-year (or 3-year) contract and that's locked that specific carrier. Not even remotely comparable, and most consumers understand that.
If you read my previous sentence.... my point was people in the US are so trained and accustomed to the contract model that they don't really think about it and so only look at subsidized prices.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:15 AM   #569
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I agree. Why? Because Google has not been able to negotiate deals with the carriers for this phone.

If they had, and added LTE to some models, this phone could have been the #1 or #2 selling phone in 2013.
I have no idea why anyone would want to buy a Nexus phone that is tied to a carrier, been tampered with by that carrier, and gets it's updates 2 or 3 months after other Nexus phones. Those aren't even Nexus phones anymore.

Can't negotiate with the carriers and not expect to have to sell your soul to the devil.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:18 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by DLeRium View Post
Hey, Apple's pretty tough on clamping down. They deploy updates across ALL phones regardless of network simultaneously. They also control that the software is exactly the same across all their iPhones.

Sure Apple couldn't prevent fragmentation and there are 3 models of iPhones now. There were 2 models before. But even then it's able to bridge the experience seamlessly across all models.

I don't see Google accomplishing the same with the Galaxy Nexus. I'm pretty sure Apple put a STFU Verizon clause in there saying that they're in charge of managing the updates and the carrier has to put up or shut up. Don't know why Google can't exact those kind of terms.
What Apple has been able to do with the carriers has incredibly impressive. Apple made the carriers their bitch. They beg for the privilege to sell an Apple product.

Unfortunately Google hasn't even come close to that kind of influence. I think Google was the ones doing all the compromising when it came to deal with carriers and so no surprise they are just skipping them this time around.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:19 AM   #571
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Does the nexus 4 use a full size SIM card, or a microSIM? I've seen both referenced in reviews.

Think there's any chance well see a sale on this on black Friday?
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:26 AM   #572
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microsim
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:26 AM   #573
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If you read my previous sentence.... my point was people in the US are so trained and accustomed to the contract model that they don't really think about it and so only look at subsidized prices.
And the current system is so entrenched and powerful that even $299 Nexus 4 is really too expensive to change the system. The only hope is that Google keeps chipping away at it with their Nexus line and Play Store and hopefully we can get magical $200 Nexus phones in the future. Even then it will be tough fight to change people's thought process on carriers and contracts. But we first need pricing parity between subsidized and unsubsidized phones in order to really make a difference.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:28 AM   #574
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If you were correct, then why isn't the phone available near that price, anywhere other than Google Play?

If we use the example of the Nexus 7, it was $249 at Google Play, and guess what? It was also $249 at big retailers. In fact it was cheaper at the big retailers because you didn't have to pay the shipping charge for it.

With the Nexus 4, it's a completely different story. $349 Euros, vs. $599 Euros.



Verizon isn't the only LTE carrier in the world.
Asus isn't LG.

The Gnex was half the price of every other phone here in Namibia right after google dropped the price of the phone on the play store.

Gnex U$435
SGS2 U$650
SGS3 U$820

The Gnex here was supplied by Samsung and you could only buy it from one of the official Samsung store at that price. All the other retailers were selling it at the old U$800 price

The 599 msrp in Europe is all LG's doing not Google's. Google doesn't sell to those markets. They have no control over how much the phone is sold there for. LG. Just like Samsung did with the Gnex.

We don't have a place that sells Asus stuff here, so the Nexus 7 is imported from the play store and they are still cheaper than anything else around.

LG is either trying to make a quick buck or doesn't want the Nexus 4 stealing sales from the Optimus G. If the play store was available in other countries like the UK, you can be sure the prices wouldn't what LG are trying to make them.

As for the carriers. Until the Nexus line can sell 10-20million phones a quarter like the iPhone, carriers are not going to listen to a word google has to say. Samsung has more clout with the Galaxy line than Google does with the Nexus line. Samsung got everyone to sell the same phone. Software might still be an issue, it could be different by the time the SGS4 launches and it has iphone like sales.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:30 AM   #575
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What Apple has been able to do with the carriers has incredibly impressive. Apple made the carriers their bitch. They pay for the privilege to sell an Apple product.

Unfortunately Google hasn't even come close to that kind of influence. I think Google was the ones doing all the compromising when it came to deal with carriers and so no surprise they are just skipping them this time around.
fixed. Carriers pay upfront for every iPhone sale and also give % of monthly bill to Apple for the duration of the contract. Look at the money Sprint promised Apple.
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