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Old 11-05-2012, 01:58 AM   #1276
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Quit early in October. Got my refund mid-October.

Went back this week. Played 66 matches and having more fun than I thought I would.

Hit detection isn't quite right. Lag is fine (ms anyway), no rubberbanding or issues like that. Performance wise it's just as bad as it's always been, and glowing mechs can blind you. Firing delay is pissing me off big style but I'm in the UK, it's worse for me.

Grinding on a Trial Mech is a great ball ache but getting that first mech feels like an achievement and once you're there... damn am I kicking some tushie in PUG's. Having a great time... even if some of the Dev choices go against BT Lore, TT and common sense.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:06 AM   #1277
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and fun is all that matters. there is a very vocal bunch denouncing the game with every change made saying its the end of the world, etc, etc... but in the end, the game is getting better. its fun plain and simple.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:52 AM   #1278
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Well I hope there's a demo, I never got into the beta.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:19 AM   #1279
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uhhh... Free2Play. Its open to everyone now
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:20 AM   #1280
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uhhh... Free2Play. Its open to everyone now
Hmm, considering I signed up for the beta you'd think they'd be nice enough to let me know the game actually released. Totally forgot it was F2P too.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:34 AM   #1281
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It loses a significant portion of fun as it strays from the long standing battletech technology.


As it stands I doubt most of the heavy clan omnis would be effective given that they rely on DHS even more than IS.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:17 PM   #1282
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eeh. experinaces may very from person to person. everyone who touts doom and gloom because they deviate from TT values are the loudest complainers at the moment. Doesnt make it any less fun. I may not agree with the path they went down for heat/weapons/whatever, but im not gonna sweat it. BIG STOMPY ROBOT ACTION! is all i need to make me happy at the moment.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:23 PM   #1283
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Normally I'd agree with it isn't a big deal deviating from TT. But these guys made it a big point that they were sticking to the TT as closely as possible and only deviating from it when it was absolutely necessary. For example, doubling the HP, that was necessary. But they didn't bother to double ammo reserves or even increase them for the longest time, that is just short sighted and stupid. They make changes when they need too but they don't fix anything those changes in turn effect thus messing up a lot more generally.

They would have saved a lot of face by not saying they were sticking to the TT rules and just went out to make a MW game. TT rules for a lot of games are very solid but do have problems, problem is when translating that to a game that isn't turnbased you have to throw a lot of it out the window.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:18 PM   #1284
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Normally I'd agree with it isn't a big deal deviating from TT. But these guys made it a big point that they were sticking to the TT as closely as possible and only deviating from it when it was absolutely necessary. For example, doubling the HP, that was necessary. But they didn't bother to double ammo reserves or even increase them for the longest time, that is just short sighted and stupid. They make changes when they need too but they don't fix anything those changes in turn effect thus messing up a lot more generally.

They would have saved a lot of face by not saying they were sticking to the TT rules and just went out to make a MW game. TT rules for a lot of games are very solid but do have problems, problem is when translating that to a game that isn't turnbased you have to throw a lot of it out the window.
so... why are you upset? they outright said from the get go they would deviate when necessary and you even say moving from a turnbased game to a videogame lots of the rules need to be revamped. Ammo has been tweaked over time. things dont happen instantly and changes they make do ripple out to other areas of the game. In turn needing more time to fix, even if the fix doesnt make them popular with the purists.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:27 PM   #1285
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Because they're deviating when it isn't necessary and they're doing so in ways that make absolutely no sense.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:28 PM   #1286
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They are deviating and doing a half ass job of it. They deviate from one thing but don't make changes to how other things interact/depending on what they changed. As I said before, it is short sighted and stupid on their part.

You don't just change one thing in a system that has various things all using it, you need to adjust across multiple systems.

I'm fine with deviation, but it has to be thought out fully and implemented in a way that doesn't screw up everything else without adjusting that as well.

That being said, they dug their own hole saying they were sticking to TT rules as close as possible instead of just going on and making big honking robots destroying each other.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:40 PM   #1287
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Because they're deviating when it isn't necessary and they're doing so in ways that make absolutely no sense.
can you elaborate?

strictly speaking of heatsinks, they stated the results of doubling them churned out results that were as expected. straight double heat sinks were overpowered in every way. In TT, this is true because it was a direct upgrade that made single sinks almost obsolete. They needed a way to make singles still viable, otherwise why have them in the game at all? *cough*flamers*cough*

And i know people are upset about the way damage is done, how they could have used a better system, yadda yadda... well they didnt. so we just have to live with what we get. And is it really so horrible?
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:02 PM   #1288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lupi View Post
It loses a significant portion of fun as it strays from the long standing battletech technology.


As it stands I doubt most of the heavy clan omnis would be effective given that they rely on DHS even more than IS.
People will complain that Clan tech is too overpowered so they'll announce the following:

1. Clan XL engines will weigh .6 times a standard engine
2. Clan DHS will dissipate 1.3 heat
3. Clan ER PPCs will do 11 damage
4. Clan LPLs will only fire out to 350 meters
5. Clan Endo and Ferro will take 10 criticals
6. Clan LRMs will have a 90 meter minimum range
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:03 PM   #1289
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can you elaborate?

strictly speaking of heatsinks, they stated the results of doubling them churned out results that were as expected. straight double heat sinks were overpowered in every way. In TT, this is true because it was a direct upgrade that made single sinks almost obsolete. They needed a way to make singles still viable, otherwise why have them in the game at all? *cough*flamers*cough*

And i know people are upset about the way damage is done, how they could have used a better system, yadda yadda... well they didnt. so we just have to live with what we get. And is it really so horrible?
That's the fucking point.

And single heat sinks are still viable because noobs that can't afford DHS will be forced to use them.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:24 PM   #1290
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That's the fucking point.

And single heat sinks are still viable because noobs that can't afford DHS will be forced to use them.
i understand thats the point. they are far and away better than singles. but theyre trying to balance things for a videogame that theyre trying to make money with. which means they cant upset the new players that are stuck with shit tech, who wont stick around when they are getting crushed in every game by people with twice the firepower.

they really should have moved the time frame up a few years and only included the better tech instead of trying to get the old equipment in. or they should have pushed it back to 3025 and only kept the old tech.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:26 PM   #1291
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People will complain that Clan tech is too overpowered so they'll announce the following:

1. Clan XL engines will weigh .6 times a standard engine
2. Clan DHS will dissipate 1.3 heat
3. Clan ER PPCs will do 11 damage
4. Clan LPLs will only fire out to 350 meters
5. Clan Endo and Ferro will take 10 criticals
6. Clan LRMs will have a 90 meter minimum range
that may be a bit much. i may have to cry foul if thats the route they go down. clans should load in teams of 5 vs IS teams of 8.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:30 PM   #1292
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Not only can everyone afford DHS but IS DHS takes up 3 critical slots. That is a ton of slots. Because then you have very little space to also use Endo Steel or FF Armor, or anything else. Dev's decision to nerf DHS is another retarded move on their part, showing they have no idea how to balance this game.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:48 PM   #1293
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can you elaborate?

strictly speaking of heatsinks, they stated the results of doubling them churned out results that were as expected. straight double heat sinks were overpowered in every way. In TT, this is true because it was a direct upgrade that made single sinks almost obsolete. They needed a way to make singles still viable, otherwise why have them in the game at all? *cough*flamers*cough*

And i know people are upset about the way damage is done, how they could have used a better system, yadda yadda... well they didnt. so we just have to live with what we get. And is it really so horrible?
That is just it, this is just one of many places where the TT rules were pretty well balanced, based on critical hits. For IS mechs, double heatsinks took up 3 critical slots, weighed 1 ton, and had the heat efficiency of 2 standard heatsinks. So triple the space double the efficiency, at the same weight, but that triple space meant it was much more likely to be destroyed by damage in battle, causing the loss of 2 heatsinks worth of cooling, while a standard heatsink would only lose 1 heatsink worth of cooling in that same case, and is much less likely to have been the component damaged in the first place. Clan double heatsinks really removed that penalty especially in the case where you were already going to put 2 heatsinks in that component. While it is still more likely to lose a double heatsink due to damage than a single, it more than made up for that offset due to weight factor.

Double heatsinks did not obsolete single heatsinks in many IS mech designs simply due to the space issues. For instance, legs were very common location for heatsinks in IS designs, but since there were only 2 critical spots, thus when IS double heatsinks are used, legs can no longer fit the heatsinks, removing more critical space which previously would have been used for weapon mounts.

That is the whole point. It was previously balanced. But they decided to unbalance the system by simply mucking with the "double" heatsinks values and not actually giving double the dissipation, but kept all the negatives of critical slot usage and damage probabilities.

The same was done with the doubling of armor. They didn't double the ammo, when now it took twice the amount of hits to destroy a mech, causing the mechs that used weapons that required ammo to need to use more critical spaces and tons in ammo when those critical spaces and tons should have gone to other weapon or support equipment (armor, engines, heatsinks, AMS). Essentially forcing a move more towards energy weapons. This might have been intentional because no one used energy weapons because they had kept the heat values of the TT game but cut their damage output and increases their cycle times so much that if you used even used a single medium laser you had to had 8 heatsinks (on top of the ones built into the engine) just to fire it constantly without risk of shutdown...

That is the whole point. They never looked at how the TT mechanics were balanced, and would simply muck with one thing, but not look at how it affected all the other pieces that balanced that mechanic in the first place. Ok, you want matches to last longer, make sure you appropriately modify the number ammo held in 1 ton such that the same relative damage is done by that ton of ammo (case in point, if you double the armor, all ammo totals are immediately doubled, now if you modify the weapon's damage down by say 20%, the ammo total would also increase by proportionally. Take SRM6 it does 2damage per missile and there are 100 missiles per ton by TT rules, this equates to 200 damage per ton of ammo. If you reduce the damage from by each missile from 2 per missile to 1.6 per missile, the equation for the number of missiles per ton should thus be 2*100=1.6*<new number>, which means the new total missiles per ton should be 125, add the doubling of the armor and it would be 250 per ton). Then you have to look at the affects on other things, like anti-missile systems. They too have a set amount of ammo. With so much increase in total number of missiles needed to be fired to produce the same damage, the damage reduction per ton of AMS ammo has been decreased, which means you need to increase the amount of ammo in 1 ton of AMS ammo to compensate. This gets more complicated due to the fact that AMS works on both short range and long range missiles. Even more complicating the fact is that AMS should only work against 1 missile system in a round (i.e. you get fired on from 2 mechs, one used a SRM6 the other an LRM20, your AMS will only work against either the SRM6 OR the LRM20, not both). This makes logical sense, in that you can only fire at one group of missile at once since the single gun can not aim at multiple locations at the same time. I don't even think they have that rule in place in the video game, it simply works against all of them until it runs out of ammo. Lets not even talk about laser AMS systems and their heat....

This is the whole point. TT rules were balanced. You can modify them to make things better from a user standpoint, i.e. 10 second rounds do not translate well when someone hits the trigger and then has to wait 10 seconds to fire again on every weapon in the game. But there are simple solutions. If you want to increase the cycle time, do it properly. For laser weapons, if you want small lasers to have a 2 second cycle time, then divide the damage and heat produced by 5. For ammo using weapons it is a little more difficult, as you need to also perform the ammo per ton calculations I previously posted when you cut the damage of an individual missile.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:54 PM   #1294
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Exactly. Once you factor 3 crit slots in, you probably will only have room for ~30-40% improved heat efficiency, not double. Furthermore, they're forcing an artificial need for DHS that is greater than there actually should be because the base heat values on all weapons don't make any sense.

I currently run an Atlas with 2 ERLL and 3 LRM15 using Endosteel and DHS. It has 1 ton free and I used all the crit slots. If the game was properly balanced (had they bumped missiles per ton up appropriately) I would probably take out 3-4 tons of LRM ammo, 1 ton of AMS ammo and go back to single heatsinks and achieve the same heat dissipation I currently have with a lot less risk to destroying those components.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:58 PM   #1295
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Originally Posted by Fallen Kell View Post
That is just it, this is just one of many places where the TT rules were pretty well balanced, based on critical hits. For IS mechs, double heatsinks took up 3 critical slots, weighed 1 ton, and had the heat efficiency of 2 standard heatsinks. So triple the space double the efficiency, at the same weight, but that triple space meant it was much more likely to be destroyed by damage in battle, causing the loss of 2 heatsinks worth of cooling, while a standard heatsink would only lose 1 heatsink worth of cooling in that same case, and is much less likely to have been the component damaged in the first place. Clan double heatsinks really removed that penalty especially in the case where you were already going to put 2 heatsinks in that component. While it is still more likely to lose a double heatsink due to damage than a single, it more than made up for that offset due to weight factor.

Double heatsinks did not obsolete single heatsinks in many IS mech designs simply due to the space issues. For instance, legs were very common location for heatsinks in IS designs, but since there were only 2 critical spots, thus when IS double heatsinks are used, legs can no longer fit the heatsinks, removing more critical space which previously would have been used for weapon mounts.

That is the whole point. It was previously balanced. But they decided to unbalance the system by simply mucking with the "double" heatsinks values and not actually giving double the dissipation, but kept all the negatives of critical slot usage and damage probabilities.

The same was done with the doubling of armor. They didn't double the ammo, when now it took twice the amount of hits to destroy a mech, causing the mechs that used weapons that required ammo to need to use more critical spaces and tons in ammo when those critical spaces and tons should have gone to other weapon or support equipment (armor, engines, heatsinks, AMS). Essentially forcing a move more towards energy weapons. This might have been intentional because no one used energy weapons because they had kept the heat values of the TT game but cut their damage output and increases their cycle times so much that if you used even used a single medium laser you had to had 8 heatsinks (on top of the ones built into the engine) just to fire it constantly without risk of shutdown...

That is the whole point. They never looked at how the TT mechanics were balanced, and would simply muck with one thing, but not look at how it affected all the other pieces that balanced that mechanic in the first place. Ok, you want matches to last longer, make sure you appropriately modify the number ammo held in 1 ton such that the same relative damage is done by that ton of ammo (case in point, if you double the armor, all ammo totals are immediately doubled, now if you modify the weapon's damage down by say 20%, the ammo total would also increase by proportionally. Take SRM6 it does 2damage per missile and there are 100 missiles per ton by TT rules, this equates to 200 damage per ton of ammo. If you reduce the damage from by each missile from 2 per missile to 1.6 per missile, the equation for the number of missiles per ton should thus be 2*100=1.6*<new number>, which means the new total missiles per ton should be 125, add the doubling of the armor and it would be 250 per ton). Then you have to look at the affects on other things, like anti-missile systems. They too have a set amount of ammo. With so much increase in total number of missiles needed to be fired to produce the same damage, the damage reduction per ton of AMS ammo has been decreased, which means you need to increase the amount of ammo in 1 ton of AMS ammo to compensate. This gets more complicated due to the fact that AMS works on both short range and long range missiles. Even more complicating the fact is that AMS should only work against 1 missile system in a round (i.e. you get fired on from 2 mechs, one used a SRM6 the other an LRM20, your AMS will only work against either the SRM6 OR the LRM20, not both). This makes logical sense, in that you can only fire at one group of missile at once since the single gun can not aim at multiple locations at the same time. I don't even think they have that rule in place in the video game, it simply works against all of them until it runs out of ammo. Lets not even talk about laser AMS systems and their heat....

This is the whole point. TT rules were balanced. You can modify them to make things better from a user standpoint, i.e. 10 second rounds do not translate well when someone hits the trigger and then has to wait 10 seconds to fire again on every weapon in the game. But there are simple solutions. If you want to increase the cycle time, do it properly. For laser weapons, if you want small lasers to have a 2 second cycle time, then divide the damage and heat produced by 5. For ammo using weapons it is a little more difficult, as you need to also perform the ammo per ton calculations I previously posted when you cut the damage of an individual missile.
5 Stars, would read again. A+++++++++ Poster. Seriously.

They need to scrap everything they've done with balance and start over. You want a peek at how things should be done if you don't want to stick to TT? Go look at MWLL. I'm not versed in their balancing details, but I've played enough to know that they increased ammo counts to compensate for the changes they've made, and that heat has been properly mitigated to fit the changed weapon cycle times.

You should consider cleaning up this post so it doesn't sound quite as critical (they're a sensitive lot of namby pambys over there) and start it as a thread on their forums.


Quote:
For laser weapons, if you want small lasers to have a 2 second cycle time, then divide the damage and heat produced by 5. For ammo using weapons it is a little more difficult, as you need to also perform the ammo per ton calculations I previously posted when you cut the damage of an individual missile.
Quick comment on this, I think they should probably keep all laser cycle times close to equal, as that will help cut back the temptation to build those stupid small laser boats.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:35 PM   #1296
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The thing thing is they are BREAKING THE GAME with the changes, its literally getting to the point where this isnt mechwarrior anymore. Lets take a look at what they are doing with the heatsinks and use some examples and some math from mechs currently in game, this isnt even touching the clan mechs which are more reliant on double heatsinks and will be even more broken than the below example...


We have an awesome AWS-8Q, this is a first gen awesome that uses old tech with no tier two equipment, its the workhorse awesome from the IS. It has 3 PPC's as its main weponry and 28 SHS. This is an all around good mech, not expensive to run or buy or repair and packs a punch, with barely enough heatsinks but it is a workable design.

Then after tier two tech comes in they redesign this mech with tier two tech to combat the clans. They release the AWS-9M. They replace the standard PPC's with ER models and the standard heatsinks with doubles to combat the extra heat of the ER PPC's. It has 20 DHS so 40 SHS worth of cooling which is a substantial upgrade over the 28 SHS of the previous AWS-8Q model but this is NEEDED to cool the much hotter ER PPC's. They also add a larger XL engine to boost speed while also reducing weight. This mech is Very expensive to buy and repair due to all the tier two tech and is a clear and definate upgrade over the older model, and you pay for this as its way more expensive to buy.

With the DHS nerfed down to 140% cooling, less than half their intended effectivness that puts the AWS-9M at 28 SHS worth of cooling, same as the AWS-8Q. But remember its got ER PPC's so will run way hotter than the 8Q, like to the point of being useless in battle hotter. So what is supposed to be a clear and expensive upgrade over the 8Q turns out be much much more ineffective and boarderline useless to field. You are paying a huge premium for tier two tech that is WORSE than the tier one mech it is replacing.

When you start to break stock canon designs such as descibed above to the point where tier two tech is WORSE that tier one tech but still alot more expensive you are now in a place where you are just making a mockery of battletech and the lore involved and should stop using the BT/MW name.

If you want to make a big stompy robot game fine im ok with that, i like big stompy robots, but dont try and pawn this crap off as BT because it clearly is NOT. Call it hawken, world of mechs, gundam robots online, whatever you want but dont abuse the BT/MW name like this if you are going to clearly step away from it to the point where stock designs are unplayable and worse than the designs they are supposed to be a upgrade from because you have broken the game mechanics to the point that makes them unplayable.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:24 AM   #1297
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Quick comment on this, I think they should probably keep all laser cycle times close to equal, as that will help cut back the temptation to build those stupid small laser boats.
And again, that is already balanced by damage, range, and the mount point types/limits which isn't a bad decision in my mind, as in the TT, really only omni mechs could be fully customized. Effective range of a small laser is 90m (in table top I believe), 3 damage, 1 heat, 0.5 tons, 1 crit slot. Yes, it doesn't scale evenly, medium is 5 damage, 3 heat, 1 ton, 1 crit, but 270m range. You won't see a lot of 12 small laser medium/heavy/assault mechs because they are simply fail due to range/speed issues, if they had simply used the TT rules. But instead we have this gimped out system of effective range and extended range damage, where a small laser still does damage at 500m.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:32 PM   #1298
GoodRevrnd
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I thought the extended range only goes out to double? I understand why they did it, but I think they probably should have lowered the effective range by the square of the distance, so it drops off and becomes ineffective very quickly.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:48 PM   #1299
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So it looks like they nerfed DHS based on laser heat values that were bugged in the first place. And now missile damage doesn't register for end of match xp & cbills. I am losing confidence in this game with every patch.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:00 PM   #1300
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I lost it when they screwed up double heat sinks and simply said pound sand. I am with others now, don't call this thing Mechwarrior anymore. It is simply big stomping robots. They have gone so far from the rules that it isn't battletech universe anymore, simply a universe with things that have the same name.
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