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Old 11-02-2012, 12:51 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by tviceman View Post
I am cautiously optimistic that with the combination of underwhelming hardware + the general (yet small) revivial in PC gaming taking place, plus with the small but albeit push to move towards the cloud, PC gaming will continue to move forward and not be substantially held back by these next gen consoles. In other words, I don't think these next gen consoles are going to have the longevity or success the xbox360, wii, and PS3 enjoyed.
i'd love to see a PC gaming renaissance, unfortunately i think to many game developers enjoy the simplicity (profits) associated with designing for a limited range of hardware.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:14 PM   #202
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i'd love to see a PC gaming renaissance, unfortunately i think to many game developers enjoy the simplicity (profits) associated with designing for a limited range of hardware.
I agree, but if the next generation of consoles only sell half or 2/3 the total units as the current generation, it's certainly enticing for developers to look more into other avenues. The PC platform has essentially gone almost entirely digital at this point, and with no licensing fee's, those are huge costs they don't have to worry about. Significantly less sales can produce the same results, and as Nvidia and AMD tout time and time again, there are 10's of millions of competent gaming PC's (HD5770 / gtx550ti performance or better). This is the first time that truly next generation consoles aren't high end hardware and with the continued move towards digital, mobile, and the increasingly competitive alternatives (Google Play, iTunes, Steam) I believe the upcoming consoles are going to be less successful overall. And the developers will have to react and adjust to this.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:18 PM   #203
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A Steamroller + GCN APU with 640 stream processors and stacked DRAM is not a very unrealistic expectation. remember that by H2 2013 Globalfoundries would be in volume production on 28nm with through silicon vias (TSV) also available for volume production

http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-n...-for-20nm-TSVs

Given that PS4 is scheduled for Q1 2014 launch behind Xbox Next, its quite probable that it would be a very well integrated high performance APU.
That would be awesome, but even Trinity 2.0 (28nm PD arch) w/ CGN (maybe w/50% more SPs) and stacked eDRAM could be fast enough. The key would be stacked DRAM with a wide memory bus. Then the core could run off regular DRAM and the stack DRAM would provide all the bandwidth the embedded GPU could use, 3D performance would be way up from Trinity. If Sony wanted to, they could build a PCIe slot horizontal to the mainboard and add a proprietary AMD graphics card for higher end SKUs. Then they could have a hi/low approach to the market and adjust to the price sensitivity of the the market in any given year. Sony is well aware of what can happen when a strong recession hits a country (since it happened to Japan well b/4 the US).
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:47 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by tviceman View Post
I agree, but if the next generation of consoles only sell half or 2/3 the total units as the current generation, it's certainly enticing for developers to look more into other avenues. The PC platform has essentially gone almost entirely digital at this point, and with no licensing fee's, those are huge costs they don't have to worry about. Significantly less sales can produce the same results, and as Nvidia and AMD tout time and time again, there are 10's of millions of competent gaming PC's (HD5770 / gtx550ti performance or better). This is the first time that truly next generation consoles aren't high end hardware and with the continued move towards digital, mobile, and the increasingly competitive alternatives (Google Play, iTunes, Steam) I believe the upcoming consoles are going to be less successful overall. And the developers will have to react and adjust to this.
In the meantime, fortunately PC gamers have a number of community funded games to look forward to. I personally can't wait for Star Citizen. Hopefully the larger development houses will notice that there are a huge number people who want to move away from the bread and butter CoD experience and get back to hardcore games.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:58 PM   #205
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In the meantime, fortunately PC gamers currently have a number of community funded games to look forward to. I personally can't wait for Star Citizen. Hopefully the larger development houses will notice that there are a huge number people who want to move away from the bread and butter CoD experience and get back to hardcore games.
Yeah it's very nice to see some of the old names back, like Chris Roberts, and getting millions of dollars worth of crowd funding and attention!
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:05 PM   #206
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Maybe 120 FPS for 3D is out of reach for current Trinity, but it's probably closer than you might think.

From a 2011 interview.

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Ryan Shrout: Focusing back on the hardware side of things, in previous years’ Quakecons we've had debates about what GPU was better for certain game engines, certain titles and what features AMD and NVIDIA do better. You've said previously that CPUs now, you don't worry about what features they have as they do what you want them to do. Are we at that point with GPUs? Is the hardware race over (or almost over)?

John Carmack: I don't worry about the GPU hardware at all. I worry about the drivers a lot because there is a huge difference between what the hardware can do and what we can actually get out of it if we have to control it at a fine grain level. That's really been driven home by this past project by working at a very low level of the hardware on consoles and comparing that to these PCs that are true orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS3 or something, but struggle in many cases to keep up the same minimum latency. They have tons of bandwidth, they can render at many more multi-samples, multiple megapixels per screen, but to be able to go through the cycle and get feedback... “fence here, update this here, and draw them there...” it struggles to get that done in 16ms, and that is frustrating.

Ryan Shrout: That's an API issue, API software overhead. Have you seen any improvements in that with DX 11 and multi-threaded drivers? Are those improving that or is it still not keeping up?

John Carmack: So we don't work directly with DX 11 but from the people that I talk with that are working with that, they (say) it might [have] some improvements, but it is still quite a thick layer of stuff between you and the hardware. NVIDIA has done some direct hardware address implementations where you can bypass most of the OpenGL overhead, and other ways to bypass some of the hidden state of OpenGL. Those things are good and useful, but what I most want to see is direct surfacing of the memory. It’s all memory there at some point, and the worst thing that kills Rage on the PC is texture updates. Where on the consoles we just say “we are going to update this one pixel here,” we just store it there as a pointer. On the PC it has to go through the massive texture update routine, and it takes tens of thousands of times [longer] if you just want to update one little piece. You start to advertise that overhead when you start to update larger blocks of textures, and AMD actually went and implemented a multi-texture update specifically for id Tech 5 so you can bash up and eliminate some of the overhead by saying “I need to update these 50 small things here,” but still it’s very inefficient. So I’m hoping that as we look forward, especially with Intel integrated graphics [where] it is the main memory, there is no reason we shouldn't be looking at that. With AMD and NVIDIA there's still issues of different memory banking arrangements and complicated things that they hide in their drivers, but we are moving towards integrated memory on a lot of things. I hope we wind up being able to say “give me a pointer, give me a pitch, give me a swizzle format,” and let me do things managing it with fences myself and we'll be able to do a better job.

Ryan Shrout: It seems like AMD has been doing a lot of talking about the future of the APU CPU and GPU combination.

John Carmack: It is important to separate a little bit. The current generation Fusion parts are really a separate CPU and separate GPU connected on the die by better or worse interconnects, but their vision is integrating them much more tightly such that they share cache hierarchies, address space, and page tables. I think its almost a foregone conclusion that its going to be the dominant architecture in the marketplace because there are these strong forces about how we are getting more shrinks on the dies, [and] we can stick more things on there. It’s going to just pay to integrate that, and you aren't going to be able to put as many transistors towards that if its a dedicated chip. You'll pick up a lot from this tight integration with cost benefits. Intel is also doing a lot better with their integrated graphics parts, once the butt of jokes, but they've taken a couple of steps now which are fully competent parts. The drivers still aren't very well tuned, the bandwidth is not great yet, and [neither is] total raw performance, but they are pretty much at feature parity barring some quality issues on there. It's close and they get better each time. This will be one of those things that will sneak up on people where the stuff that they got free with their CPU is all of a sudden good enough to run the games they want to play. I have high hopes that because it is all integrated memory, Intel will be able to lead the way with surfacing and direct access. That will give them the opportunity to sometimes take console developers who are used to this lower level access and maybe have something -shock of shocks- run better on Intel’s Integrated Graphics part than the much more expensive NVIDIA or AMD card that has all the layers of driver overhead.

Last edited by Jovec; 11-02-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:47 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by DrBoss View Post
i'd love to see a PC gaming renaissance, unfortunately i think to many game developers enjoy the simplicity (profits) associated with designing for a limited range of hardware.
More like smartphones and tablets take over really.

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The recent specs which have been released certainly seem underwhelming. I can’t help but think that (as mentioned above) there is critical GPU information missing from the developer kits (or at least the information that’s been released about the developer kits).
You're not missing anything. These consoles are going to be cheap at launch and the room for subsidy is small. They have to be.

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I fully expect (hope) Sony to push the envelope with their next console. While it’s not selling well, Vita is a beautiful and very powerful handheld that’s packed full of exciting technologies. I just can imagine the PS4 won’t follow suit.
The Vita is an epic bust. Expect Sony to disown it soon after Christmas. They priced it too high.
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:54 PM   #208
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The Vita is an epic bust. Expect Sony to disown it soon after Christmas. They priced it too high.
Not exactly. They priced it at the exact same price point the 3DS was when it came out. You couldn't have expected them to price it lower than that, and people were genuinely excited when they announced that price. And, more than likely, they priced it as low as they could without losing too much money on each one. Their actual pricing problem comes from not being able to drop the price this year because the hardware was so expensive (much more so than the 3DS), and more importantly adding a hidden cost by not shipping with usable flash memory inside and forcing everyone to get a proprietary memory card (probably to make up for how low they're pricing the system). There's more than likely a price cut coming early next year (all they've said is no price cut this year).

The real thing they have to worry about is if they'll be able to get anyone to develop blockbuster games for it even after the price cut. Because without the games, it'll just be a PSP redux, a good system that no one wanted to risk developing big games on it because of the userbase (though that was due more to piracy than system sales). Nintendo doesn't/didn't have that issue because they have internal franchises like Mario and Zelda to use as system sellers after a price drop (there was a Mario released a couple months after the 3DS drop). But Sony's already shot the Uncharted bullet at launch, and while a Killzone game is coming out next year that franchise has never been the system seller they wanted it to be. So their best but for a post-price drop system seller is to rely on third parties to make the games that will sell the system, and what third-party is going to want to do that when the sales are as low as they are right now. The best they have so-far is ACIII-Liberation, which is getting good, but not great, reviews, and getting another third party to do that again is looking more and more unlikely as the months go on.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:29 PM   #209
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The minute I read that Sony is aiming at a "very affordable" console, I knew that's not a good sign for good hardware, even mid-range hardware for that matter.
What's the most critical piece of this puzzle?

I see it as full future hardware backward compatibility built in which can be easily accomplished with an all AMD console ecosystem going forward and Microsoft and Sony now appear to be on the same page on this.

I wrote a while back I considered by far the most logical $cenario for all the majors in the console/pc gaming space was a common single vendor hardware platform for all three next gen consoles (with AMD the obvious choice) which would slash costs for everyone and increase profits for everyone. I think Sony was put in a position where it had no choice, and Nintendo isn't fully there yet, but this is indeed what seems to be happening.

It allows for a far shorter console release cycle to take advantage of emerging capabilities. This shortened console release cycle concept appeared in the leaked microsoft next gen console plans. It's becoming critical for next gen to release in 2013, yet just two more years would enable a far more capable console in the same cost and power footprint.

Solution - release a new console in 2013 with the best doable technology and processing power, then update in three or four years to take advantage of power sufficient to enable full 3d/4k capability. Consumers will stay happy as long as they can plug their new machine into their existing account and play all the games they already own and by which time developers, having worked on the same ecosystem for years, will be able to easily create dual versions of their games. Consumer confusion will be non-existent in the purely online game sales/download model that will then exist.

Microsofts $99 down, extended Gold account contract, will have a substanital advantage in this model, and they are on record they will continue this model for the 720, which allows not only for selling the 720 at or near cost on day one, but making making it relatively painless to move up to the 720 'turbo' when it becomes available. I would expect Sony to follow suit.

Nintendo, if it survives, is likely to join the party with it's next gen (after the wii u) console which, if the wii u is a functional flop (highly probable) can be expected sooner than later.

AMD would have a number of synergistic advantages going forward.

Nvidia not so much.

If this plays out as a pure AMD play into the foreseeable future, seems logical Nvidia will be concentrating it's efforts elsewhere and gradually abandon gaming.They will simply cease having traction or leverage with developers and publishers.

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Old 11-03-2012, 05:04 AM   #210
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I agree, but if the next generation of consoles only sell half or 2/3 the total units as the current generation
Quote:
This is the first time that truly next generation consoles aren't high end hardware and with the continued move towards digital, mobile, and the increasingly competitive alternatives (Google Play, iTunes, Steam) I believe the upcoming consoles are going to be less successful overall.
I actually think the next gen is going to sell a lot better than this one, mainly because they will aim for a lot lower price points, and for good cost reduction down the line. If they go with a reasonably sized chip and a mem bus that can be stacked on the chip later on, cost reducing to below the magical $100 line in the tail end of the generation ought to be possible.

People cry about how it's not going to be on the level of high-end pcs this time around. As a dev, I welcome that. Frankly, the last gen sucked from a dev standpoint. PS2 sold ~50M consoles in the first 3 years, PS3 did what, 18M? Market size correlates pretty linearly with game sales, and thus the amount you can spend on development. If the trend continues it doesn't matter how many flops the console has, no-one is going to be able to fund game development for it.

Because of this, it's good to hear that both MS and Sony are talking how this gen is going to be less extravagant. My dream console? Fast as a mid-end/budget PC at graphics (can be slower in cpu), but so cheap that people who don't even play games buy them to get Youtube on their big screen. That'll get you much better games than a megasystem with 4x bigger GPU, because there will be investment into games other than the few safest possible franchises.

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Old 11-03-2012, 09:08 AM   #211
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I see it as full future hardware backward compatibility built in which can be easily accomplished with an all AMD console ecosystem going forward and Microsoft and Sony now appear to be on the same page on this.
This only remains viable as long as console makers want to have *very* weak gaming CPUs. There is pretty much no benefit to MS or Sony going with AMD over a smaller and cheaper POWER chip unless AMD is willing to lose money. AMD also needs to stay in business which isn't close to assured at this point.

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I wrote a while back I considered by far the most logical $cenario for all the majors in the console/pc gaming space was a common single vendor hardware platform for all three next gen consoles (with AMD the obvious choice) which would slash costs for everyone and increase profits for everyone.
I'm not seeing the slashing costs for Sony. Producing a POWER chip themselves with a smaller die size, or paying AMD to make a larger chip for them..... not seeing any possible savings for them. MS and Nintendo don't have anywhere near the hardware resources Sony does so they are in a very different position, but Nintendo did select one of the two *obvious* choices when looking at a cost sensitive for a console- POWER(the other is MIPS, x86 is *NOT* a good cost saving platform by any stretch of the imagination).

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It allows for a far shorter console release cycle to take advantage of emerging capabilities.
Too stupid to really even both considering. Consoles start working on the next gen when current gen sales go down. One company has tried that technique in the past, Sega. Ask them how that worked out for them. Console gamers will not buy a short cycle product knowingly.

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AMD would have a number of synergistic advantages going forward.
Their insanely weak CPUs? Their atrocious platform support? Their being on the verge of bankruptcy? In any realistic sense they have one thing going for them, a solid GPU division. In terms of profitability right now nVidia makes *far* more money of their CPU division then AMD does. That wasn't a typo either.

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If this plays out as a pure AMD play into the foreseeable future, seems logical Nvidia will be concentrating it's efforts elsewhere and gradually abandon gaming.
For how long will PC gaming be ahead of ARM gaming? You seem to completely ignore that factor, although it seems like the major developers certainly aren't. By the time the next generation of consoles hits, the way things are tracking, it isn't unreasonable to assume that nVidia would have a larger CPU division then AMD in absolute terms(not just profits as it is now). Will ARM move up to higher computing tasks? I'd bet money on it, if it will be competitive with MIPS and POWER at that time remains to be seen, besting x86 isn't a tough target with the power envelopes we are talking about.

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Frankly, the last gen sucked from a dev standpoint. PS2 sold ~50M consoles in the first 3 years, PS3 did what, 18M?
The Wii sold more in its' first three years then the PS3, how did that work out as a development platform? It is very far removed from simply moving a given amount of units of hardware. You have to have a compelling platform for people to buy games on. The currently talked about specs for the PS4 aren't it. It will not move a lot of games. It will do worse in its' life cycle then the PS3 if it ships the way people are talking about(horribly crippled with an APU).

Quote:
Because of this, it's good to hear that both MS and Sony are talking how this gen is going to be less extravagant.
BluRay made the PS3 expensive. BluRay. BluRay. BluRay. When the PS3 launched at $499 it was one if not the cheapest BluRay player you could buy(in most markets it was the cheapest). All of the computing power the PS3 had was relatively speaking inexpensive, BluRay drives were not. If the launched the hypothetical PS4 with a POWER8 based CPU comparable to a Cell 2 with a ~770 class GPU in Q4 2013 with today's BRD prices they could hit $349 without too much trouble. It would also be a *much* better machine then anything the people in this thread have brought up as a viable alternative.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:08 PM   #212
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I actually think the next gen is going to sell a lot better than this one, mainly because they will aim for a lot lower price points, and for good cost reduction down the line. If they go with a reasonably sized chip and a mem bus that can be stacked on the chip later on, cost reducing to below the magical $100 line in the tail end of the generation ought to be possible.

People cry about how it's not going to be on the level of high-end pcs this time around. As a dev, I welcome that. Frankly, the last gen sucked from a dev standpoint. PS2 sold ~50M consoles in the first 3 years, PS3 did what, 18M? Market size correlates pretty linearly with game sales, and thus the amount you can spend on development. If the trend continues it doesn't matter how many flops the console has, no-one is going to be able to fund game development for it.

Because of this, it's good to hear that both MS and Sony are talking how this gen is going to be less extravagant. My dream console? Fast as a mid-end/budget PC at graphics (can be slower in cpu), but so cheap that people who don't even play games buy them to get Youtube on their big screen. That'll get you much better games than a megasystem with 4x bigger GPU, because there will be investment into games other than the few safest possible franchises.
Blu Rays, tablets, HTPC's, smart TV's, and Blu-rays already do net flix, hulu, youtube. Just about everybody already has this capability or can get this capability without buying a console they don't intend to play games on. And nobody today cares how much a console will cost 6 years after it comes out (in reference to you talking about it costing less than $100 at the end of it's life). When the next gen consoles hit and the initial games offer only a very small improvement over current consoles, especially when compariing the xbox/PS2 to xbox360/PS3, and when factoring in the rising popularity mobile, social, mmo, F2P, and steam gaming- I think next gen will be a harder sell. I don't think the next gen consoles will be unsuccessful, I just think the system has peaked in popularity and will be competing against many more diverse platforms than in the past.

Last edited by tviceman; 11-03-2012 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:36 PM   #213
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I actually think the next gen is going to sell a lot better than this one, mainly because they will aim for a lot lower price points, and for good cost reduction down the line. If they go with a reasonably sized chip and a mem bus that can be stacked on the chip later on, cost reducing to below the magical $100 line in the tail end of the generation ought to be possible.

People cry about how it's not going to be on the level of high-end pcs this time around. As a dev, I welcome that. Frankly, the last gen sucked from a dev standpoint. PS2 sold ~50M consoles in the first 3 years, PS3 did what, 18M? Market size correlates pretty linearly with game sales, and thus the amount you can spend on development. If the trend continues it doesn't matter how many flops the console has, no-one is going to be able to fund game development for it.

Because of this, it's good to hear that both MS and Sony are talking how this gen is going to be less extravagant. My dream console? Fast as a mid-end/budget PC at graphics (can be slower in cpu), but so cheap that people who don't even play games buy them to get Youtube on their big screen. That'll get you much better games than a megasystem with 4x bigger GPU, because there will be investment into games other than the few safest possible franchises.
That has happened already.

Take this view much further and gaming is dead. This generation has been hurtling towards the lowest common denominator, hunting for profit and eking out every last drop of money from consumers with DLC.

Game development on these consoles hasn't become worse because these systems were "powerful" it was because of the piss poor selection of hardware in the PS3, and the complete lack of quality control with the 360.

Crysis was done for $20 million, and MW2 cost in the region of 3 times that. Your idea that a crappier, cheaper system will result in better games is oversimplified. This generation has seen the most crap because it has become a game of maximising profits and relying on huge marketing campaigns in addition to the poor management of the hardware. Never mind that more powerful systems will allow for real time effects to replace those previously laboured over by artists and programmers going direct to the metal for stuff that still doesn't look that great (Uncharted, KZ3 and GT5).

Last edited by Bobisuruncle54; 11-03-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:09 AM   #214
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I'm not seeing the slashing costs for Sony. Producing a POWER chip themselves with a smaller die size, or paying AMD to make a larger chip for them..... not seeing any possible savings for them.
Be the same slashed costs as for Microsoft. Since AMD already developed or is developing all the technologies and middleware needed for Microsoft's and Sony's next gen consoles anyway for their own purposes, all Microsoft and Sony have to do is provide AMD with their respective specifications based on AMD's presentation of what capabilities will be available in specific timeframes and AMD puts it all together.

Sony also will benefit hugely from sharing core AMD processing elements with Microsoft in game development and publishing.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:26 AM   #215
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[QUOTE=Bobisuruncle54;34189685]
Game development on these consoles hasn't become worse because these systems were "powerful" it was because of the piss poor selection of hardware in the PS3, and the complete lack of quality control with the 360. [QUOTE]

Considering the raves Xbox exclusive Halo 4 graphics are getting, the Xbox 360 graphics potential fully realized is pretty spectacular.

If Ms and Sony have decided to go with a much shorter console update model that ADDS TO core hardware and software technologies that build in future full backward compatibility, they can come out with moderately priced cost effective current gen hardware in 2013 that will still provide a spectacular upgrade in graphics, AI and the overall gaming experience and an updated console in 2016 or 2017 that 'unleases gaming hell' as it were.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:37 PM   #216
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Sony also will benefit hugely from sharing core AMD processing elements with Microsoft in game development and publishing.
How, in any way comprehensible, does that benefit Sony, or vice versa for that matter? Neither Sony nor MS release cross platform games, to do so would be idiotic from a business perspective. There isn't a benefit for them making their development environment as close as possible for them at all. For third party developers you could make a very compelling case, but for Sony and MS they certainly don't stand to benefit.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:33 AM   #217
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Default PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 APU used as basis

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Developers are currently taking receipt of a new PlayStation 4 dev kit, VG247 has been told today, with a final version slated to appear in January. Yes, it’ll have Blu-ray. No, it isn’t being made in Japan. Multiple sources have confirmed today that a new version of the Orbis kit is now shipping to developers, and that it’s housed in a normal PC case.

There are to be four versions of the dev kit, we were told. A previous version was essentially just a graphics card. The version shipping now is a “modified PC,” and the third version, appearing in January, will be close to final spec. A final version will be delivered to developers “next summer”.

Some US developers attended a “disclosure meeting” at Sony’s offices this week, with a further meeting to take place in the coming weeks. The purpose of the meeting is for Sony to tell studios what the machine is designed to do, to detail hardware and to show a set of presentations.

Our source told us that Sony is only calling the machine Orbis, and is not using the words “PlayStation 4? in these meetings at all.

Orbis, we were told today, is based on the AMD’s A10 APU series. An APU (Accelerated Processing Unit) is a combined CPU and GPU.

PS4's APU was described today as a “derivative” of existing A10 hardware. The hardware is “based on A10 system and base platform”.

The “ultimate goal” for the hardware, we were told, is for it to be able to run 1080p60 games in 3D with “no problem,” to create a machine that’s powerful enough for “today and tomorrow’s market”.

The dev kits have “either 8Gb or 16Gb of RAM. Deduce from that what you will.”

The hardware is not being made in Japan, it was said.

When asked if PS4 will have an optical drive, specifically Blu-ray, our source responded: “Of course it has.” We’ve been told the hard drive will be 256Gb “as standard,” but it’s not clear if it’ll be a normal HDD or a solid state drive.

We were told that Sony’s aim with Orbis is to avoid problems involved in launching PS3 by creating something “very affordable” but that “isn’t a slouch”.

The machine has WiFi and Ethernet connectivity and HDMI out. Our source said the was “no difference” between PlayStation 3 and Orbis input/output.

The UI, however, has been revamped. It was said today that players will now be able to press the PS button mid-game and travel “anywhere” on the system. An example given was buying DLC from the PS Store mid-game then seamlessly returning to play.

“They’re trying to make it as fluid as possible,” our source said.

We were also told that the machine will be designed to accept system and product updates in the background, and that it’ll “always be in standby mode”. When you set the console up, we were told, you’ll be asked if you want to allow background downloads. You can, of course, disallow them.

No details have been given on the pad as yet. Confirmation is expected this month.

Orbis is expected to be announced at an event “just before E3? next year.
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/ps4..._as_basis.html
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:15 AM   #218
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Another thing to consider when trying to guesstimate the graphics power of the next console generation- the power consumption and cooling requirements of modern graphics cards have gone WAYYYY up since the mid-2000s. The Xenos chip in the 360 is close to an ATi X1800, which was the flagship of its day. However, it was also a single slot card, with only a single 6-pin PCIe power connector. That puts it roughly in the thermal envelope of a modern HD7750 or HD7770.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:06 AM   #219
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How, in any way comprehensible, does that benefit Sony, or vice versa for that matter? Neither Sony nor MS release cross platform games, to do so would be idiotic from a business perspective. There isn't a benefit for them making their development environment as close as possible for them at all. For third party developers you could make a very compelling case, but for Sony and MS they certainly don't stand to benefit.
Of course they benefit from having a similar development environment, it is not a direct benefit mind but it is there. Some games are very poor on PS3, take GTA4 and Red Dead Redemption as an example, that sort of difference can affect sales and perception of the console. If the hardware and development environment is similar then 3rd party games are going to perform roughly equally on both consoles. That means for the most part the only thing to affect sales will be things that MS or Sony are in control of like the online experience, console pricing and timing/quality of their exclusive games.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:16 AM   #220
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So now we are stuck with A10 performance for consoles for the next 6-10 years...so much for consoles not being the source of stagnation.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6347/a...sktop-part-2/2

And weakass CPU...combined with a midget IGP...nice *sigh*
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:47 AM   #221
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So now we are stuck with A10 performance for consoles for the next 6-10 years...so much for consoles not being the source of stagnation.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6347/a...sktop-part-2/2

And weakass CPU...combined with a midget IGP...nice *sigh*
For goodness sake. The A10 is what is in an early devkit, not the actual console. By your logic a 360 would be two G5 Powermacs strapped together.

The title of this thread refers to a direct quote from Mr Read- "semi-custom APUs". Specialised silicon for their customers, not off the shelf A10s.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:54 AM   #222
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My thinking is that a semi custom APU could probably blow most people here away in terms of power.

The reason is this - currently, a 7970 GPU uses 4.3 billion transistors. It is a high price, low volume part. What if AMD targeted approximately 4 billion transistors, or even 3 billion, for their semi custom APU?

Why would they do that? They can fab a 4.3 billion transistor chip at the moment. So, if they treat that as their ceiling, then the cost of fabbing the custom APU will get lower as time goes on and process nodes improve. Plus, it would allow Sony the ability to do some really crazy stuff by having the CPU and GPU so tightly integrated. It would be a very good demo of AMD's entire reasoning behind APUs.

Anyway, so what kind of kit could we get in such an APU, considering that Trinity is about 1.3 billion transistors? Probably quite a lot! If they reserved 1 billion for the CPU part, that leaves 2 to 3 billion for the GPU part, meaning approximately 7870 level of performance. Thats quite a lot of performance when your developers can optimize for just one hardware spec. Plus no doubt they will have some crazy memory bus, maybe 128 or 256 bit GDDR5, so the APU will not be very memory constrained. They might even embed eDRAM to help that further.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:52 AM   #223
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For goodness sake. The A10 is what is in an early devkit, not the actual console. By your logic a 360 would be two G5 Powermacs strapped together.
not only those APUs are faster than today consoles, theese APUs are very bandwidth starved...
just adding some edram, they would likely almost double the igp performance
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:50 AM   #224
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not only those APUs are faster than today consoles, theese APUs are very bandwidth starved...
just adding some edram, they would likely almost double the igp performance
Yeah, I would imagine they would have some type of RAM on the CPU die to give the GPU's the bandwidth they need. Honestly, I could care less if the new consoles are weak because I could see it driving developers back to the PC in droves.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:47 PM   #225
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With regards to APU memory bandwidth, couldn't MS use GDDR5 for an APU instead of DDR3 if that's the case?

I'm also curious as to whether or not it will have turbo clocks, which could be quite an interesting feature in a console.
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