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Old 11-04-2012, 11:49 AM   #151
Keysplayr
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I just don't see how, if the heat sink fins themselves are spinning, the heat from the semi can be successfully transferred to the moving fins. How does the heat get to the fins? A spindle in the center? How much heat can that actually carry? And lubrication. What compound can not only lubricate, but allow the transfer of so much heat?
I'm thinking this isn't going to be anywhere near as efficient as they say it is.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:11 PM   #152
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Keys didn't RTFA.

The lubricant is air.
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Originally Posted by Abwx View Post
I saw good resolutions pics of the so called lunar module, heck, that s quite a piece of garbage with badly jointed metalic and litteraly hammered plates, seriously, you think that this piece of metalic junk actualy landed on the moon..??
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:21 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keysplayr View Post
I just don't see how
try reading the link or at least reading the thread.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:43 PM   #154
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Well all understand that heat can xfer from our current heatsink fins to the air blown by the fan.

Now, try to think how that can go either direction, it's reversible.

So you have one heated metal xfer heat to the airstream. You get hot air. But that hot airstream passes over another set of cool fins. The heat is xfered from the hot air to the cool fins.

So heat passes from one thing to another. It's not a one-way street. Heat goes downhill from hotter things to cooler things.

That's what the air bearing does, it lets heat go from one metal piece to air to another metal piece. That's how the heat crosses the air bearing.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:40 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Keysplayr View Post
I just don't see how, if the heat sink fins themselves are spinning, the heat from the semi can be successfully transferred to the moving fins. How does the heat get to the fins? A spindle in the center? How much heat can that actually carry? And lubrication. What compound can not only lubricate, but allow the transfer of so much heat?
I'm thinking this isn't going to be anywhere near as efficient as they say it is.

It's snake-oil looking for investors is all. That's all that's ever been. There is no benefit to spinning the whole heatsink, even if you could transfer heat to it just as fast as a normal set up.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:40 PM   #156
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It's snake-oil looking for investors is all. That's all that's ever been. There is no benefit to spinning the whole heatsink, even if you could transfer heat to it just as fast as a normal set up.
Sandia Labs is looking for investors?

They have plenty of cash, called your tax dollars.
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I saw good resolutions pics of the so called lunar module, heck, that s quite a piece of garbage with badly jointed metalic and litteraly hammered plates, seriously, you think that this piece of metalic junk actualy landed on the moon..??
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:49 PM   #157
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Youtube, for the Internet generation that doesn't actually read anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWQZNXEKkaU
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Originally Posted by Abwx View Post
I saw good resolutions pics of the so called lunar module, heck, that s quite a piece of garbage with badly jointed metalic and litteraly hammered plates, seriously, you think that this piece of metalic junk actualy landed on the moon..??
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:41 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Phynaz View Post
Keys didn't RTFA.

The lubricant is air.
You're 100% correct. I didn't. Just by looking at it screams poor heat transfer from semi to heatsink.
The lubricant is air? Even worse. What happens when there are air gaps between heatsink and heatshield in today's heatsink applications?
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:20 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keysplayr View Post
You're 100% correct. I didn't. Just by looking at it screams poor heat transfer from semi to heatsink.
The lubricant is air? Even worse. What happens when there are air gaps between heatsink and heatshield in today's heatsink applications?
The gap is only 0.001". And unlike conventional coolers it is between two metallic surfaces (held together by magnetic attraction) with one spinning at 2000 RPM.

Here is a nice short PDF about the design which FAQ section provides good information and links to how the "air bearing" design works:

https://ip.sandia.gov/techpdfs/Sandi...s%20Market.pdf

Quote:
Q: Is the thermal resistance of the air gap region large enough to be a problem?
A: no—for example, in our current prototype device the thermal resistance of the air gap region is 0.02 °C/W.
They do mention in the video, that initially there was a lot of scepticism about the design and since the very same question is the first in the FAQ section, you're probably not the first one to point it out

It is important to understand that it's not someones brainfart they hacked together in a weekend on the off change that it might work. It is a result of years of complex fluid-dynamics modelling, trying hundreds of different designs, finding one that does work the best in the models. Without any prototypes scepticism might be well founded ... but rototypes have been built and the modelling IS backed up by experimental data.

By June they had at least 2 licencees to the design (one in CPU cooling). wouldn't you think that CPU cooler companies don't simply throw money away on revolutionary (and iffy) designs before seeing hard, real-life data to back them up ?
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:53 AM   #160
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https://techportal.eere.energy.gov/t....do/techID=527
Whats not said is that they have a prototype, thats abit over 10cm in diameter, that funktions at 0.2C/W. And they believe they might reach as low as 0.1C/W.

The fact that its 10 times smaller, can cool better than most air coolers, and use less power to do so? It almost seems to good to be true.

All this time.... fans blowing air on some metal fins... when its apperntly much more effective to just spin the cooling fins around through the air (instead of the otherway around)
... I am not quite sure I see this happening .. or its claimed effectiveness.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:32 AM   #161
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Well, you gotta admit, in our current coolers, the potential of the plastic fan is untapped.

I mean we have plastic spinning fans that do not transfer any heat from themselves, they just push air toward a stationary heatsink.

But what if the plastic fan was instead metal, and could help transfer heat from itself (if thermally interfacing the heat source)? That's a huge potential, and this Sandia design captures that potential.

That's a big deal.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:38 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by KingFatty View Post
Well, you gotta admit, in our current coolers, the potential of the plastic fan is untapped.

I mean we have plastic spinning fans that do not transfer any heat from themselves, they just push air toward a stationary heatsink.

But what if the plastic fan was instead metal, and could help transfer heat from itself (if thermally interfacing the heat source)? That's a huge potential, and this Sandia design captures that potential.

That's a big deal.
I don't think it's quite as simple as making the fan metal instead of plastic.

Instead of pushing air past stationary fins, the sandia cooler is using rotational acceleration to decrease the "dead air gap" (as it is described in the video), and the the fins being shaped into an impeller pulls in cooler air to improve heat transfer. None of that would happen if you just took a HSF and make the fan metal.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:12 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keysplayr View Post
You're 100% correct. I didn't. Just by looking at it screams poor heat transfer from semi to heatsink.
The lubricant is air? Even worse. What happens when there are air gaps between heatsink and heatshield in today's heatsink applications?

I'm wth you, I just don't see it working as advertised.

I don't have time to read up on it now, but what happens as dust builds up on the fins? Will that throw it off balance enough that it wobbles, just a bit, and the .001 does become an issue?

I guess we'll have to wait and see if anything comes of this, but it has some problems in my mind.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #164
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After watching the video, I didn't like how the dust issue was dismissed with "it will be flung off." We all know how our current fans are spinning and they still collect dust on them.

I guess it makes sense that the weight of the dust is negligible compared to the weight of the spinning heavy impeller, so even if the dust build-up causes lop-sided weight, the impeller won't really notice or get thrown off (and the air bearing is probably immune to wobble, the bearing holds the tolerance, not the other way around and I think that non-intuitiveness is throwing-off a lot of readers who think the precise tolerance is needed for the bearing, that's backwards). Anyway, it also seems reasonable that dust will build-up on the impeller symmetrically so it's still a non-issue of dust build up. But why didn't they mention these things instead of dismissing dust?
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:00 PM   #165
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Did people take physics? its amazing how many think this will work.
This won't work better than current heatsink + fan system. Both in cost and performance.

The main issue is of course the part where blades meet the surface. Or simply, how the heat is effectively transferred. ANY gap and it will be worthless, too much friction requires other details that just isn't cost effective at all. not even close.

NEXT!.
too much friction and one might end up with a heater

from the link it looks like .... nonsense....tbh.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:04 PM   #166
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here is another interesting idea : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Es2ALpZ_s

Last edited by 9enesis; 11-05-2012 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:36 PM   #167
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Just because you can't figure out how it works based on your high school physics background doesn't mean that it doesn't work.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:54 PM   #168
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Just because you can't figure out how it works based on your high school physics background doesn't mean that it doesn't work.
did you address this to me?
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:08 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Keysplayr View Post
You're 100% correct. I didn't. Just by looking at it screams poor heat transfer from semi to heatsink.
The lubricant is air? Even worse. What happens when there are air gaps between heatsink and heatshield in today's heatsink applications?
Sometimes things aren't always as they seem?

Do the math, then tell us whether it sucks or not.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:23 PM   #170
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Sometimes things aren't always as they seem?

Do the math, then tell us whether it sucks or not.
Well, the issue is heat transfer, straight up. Did anyone pick up on the "dust won't stick to this because it's moving so fast" comment? That's complete BS, it WILL get dust on it, in use and more than that, when off. What happens if dust gets into that air gap? Lab testing is one thing, real world performance is another.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:13 PM   #171
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No one is going to believe this but yesterday I had this very same exact idea... and then today I was doing a search related to cleaning the inside of a pc and just randomly came across this....
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:22 AM   #172
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it's still vaporware. i wonder what will be out first: the commercial application of this, or Duke Nuke'm Forever...
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:04 AM   #173
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it's still vaporware. i wonder what will be out first: the commercial application of this, or Duke Nuke'm Forever...
Erm. Duke Nukem Forever came out already.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:13 AM   #174
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it's still vaporware. i wonder what will be out first: the commercial application of this, or Duke Nuke'm Forever...
Duke Nukem Forever WAS released. Didn't you get the memo?
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:33 AM   #175
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the factory called, NTMBK and VirtualLarry models are being recalled to get their humor upgraded.
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