Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Social > Politics and News

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals
· Free Stuff
· Contests and Sweepstakes
· Black Friday 2013
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-04-2012, 10:55 AM   #1
NoStateofMind
Diamond Member
 
NoStateofMind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,181
Default True Free Market Society

To think of a society completely run by free market is very hard to imagine. Yes we have all been 'indoctrinated' in a sense because this is all we know. The biggest hurdle? Fear. We do not know whats on the other side.

What does a world look like without government?

Who will protect those who cannot protect themselves?

Who will help those who cannot help themselves? (sick,elderly)

Wouldn't the weakest (and possibly poorest) suffer the most under a completely free market system?

I have put some thought into this. If we woke up tomorrow and the US government were dissolved you would have a mass vacuum of power. Whether it be another invading country or people from within wanting to control. Our founders knew this evil was within us and set out to provide the framework to restrict government. The Constitution was that binding law to forbid government from interfering with citizens everyday lives. That may have worked for 100yrs and I may be stretching it. The end result is that through time we will always end up where we are now. There will always be one supreme 'gang' if you will. Thomas Jefferson knew this would happen when he made the claim that a revolution should take place every 20yrs just to ensure government didn't overgrow its boundaries. That's a bit excessive I think but he was trying to make the point that men are susceptible to corruption given the right circumstance.

Therefore it is my contention that for a true free market to work for any length of time it must be under a strict adherence to Law. When these laws are subverted for the powerful or rich they cease to have any effectiveness and essentially erode free market principles for their own gain.
__________________
JOSIE the OUTLAW

"For this reason was the Son of God manifest, that God may be Glorified IN Him"...words from a dream
NoStateofMind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 11:23 AM   #2
AyashiKaibutsu
Diamond Member
 
AyashiKaibutsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 8,548
Default

I'm not really sure where you're going. You talk a lot about free markets and then say in order for them to work they must be constrained and held to it. Most people these days arguing for true free markets say all of our woes regarding them is because of the laws we imposed on them.

That said my opinion of truly free markets is such: Magic wand (invisible hand) waving "free markets" aren't the be all answer to society. There are lots of things they simply don't fix. Ways of gaining profit that follow the rules, but is still highly damaging to society. Money is a powerful influencer and there are times when the "market" doesn't act rationally as a whole in pursuit of it. These things have happened all throughout the history of markets (see tulip bubble as an example). A society's well being should not hinge on that, and much of what was done after the great depression was done to prevent society being so hinged on it again.
__________________
The large print giveths and the small print taketh away.
AyashiKaibutsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 11:33 AM   #3
MovingTarget
Diamond Member
 
MovingTarget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,498
Default

Have you ever played the Bioshock series?

On a more serious notes, the free market is efficient, but it fails to serve the needs of a lot of the population. It creates inhuman conditions that we as a society should not allow. We only see small echoes in the "free market" system we have now. Laisez-faire capitalism is a failure, and for good reason.
__________________
Insert signature here.
MovingTarget is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 11:37 AM   #4
uclaLabrat
Diamond Member
 
uclaLabrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,278
Default

It would look a lot like the mid-to-late 1800's, where we had a basically unregulated wall st, with robber barons, terrible conditions for the working class, concentration of the wealth at the very top, extreme boom-bust cycles as the asset bubbles expand and implode, extreme graft and corruption, and pretty much a shitty life for all those not named vanderbilt, carnegie, rockefeller, and morgan.

People who think an unfettered free market capitalism is the savior of all mankind are fucking morons who've never bothered to open a history book.
uclaLabrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 11:50 AM   #5
Doppel
Lifer
 
Doppel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 13,313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingTarget View Post
Have you ever played the Bioshock series?

On a more serious notes, the free market is efficient, but it fails to serve the needs of a lot of the population. It creates inhuman conditions that we as a society should not allow. We only see small echoes in the "free market" system we have now. Laisez-faire capitalism is a failure, and for good reason.
I am playing bio shock for the first time now
Doppel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 12:09 PM   #6
soundforbjt
Diamond Member
 
soundforbjt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In an office
Posts: 6,693
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by uclaLabrat View Post
It would look a lot like the mid-to-late 1800's, where we had a basically unregulated wall st, with robber barons, terrible conditions for the working class, concentration of the wealth at the very top, extreme boom-bust cycles as the asset bubbles expand and implode, extreme graft and corruption, and pretty much a shitty life for all those not named vanderbilt, carnegie, rockefeller, and morgan.

People who think an unfettered free market capitalism is the savior of all mankind are fucking morons who've never bothered to open a history book.
So, pretty much what we have now.
__________________
"Soitenly, if at first you don't succeed, keep on suckin' till you do succeed." - Curly Howard


The Heat 106-0-0
soundforbjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 12:09 PM   #7
Moonbeam
Elite Member
 
Moonbeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 51,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PC Surgeon View Post
To think of a society completely run by free market is very hard to imagine. Yes we have all been 'indoctrinated' in a sense because this is all we know. The biggest hurdle? Fear. We do not know whats on the other side.

What does a world look like without government?

Who will protect those who cannot protect themselves?

Who will help those who cannot help themselves? (sick,elderly)

Wouldn't the weakest (and possibly poorest) suffer the most under a completely free market system?

I have put some thought into this. If we woke up tomorrow and the US government were dissolved you would have a mass vacuum of power. Whether it be another invading country or people from within wanting to control. Our founders knew this evil was within us and set out to provide the framework to restrict government. The Constitution was that binding law to forbid government from interfering with citizens everyday lives. That may have worked for 100yrs and I may be stretching it. The end result is that through time we will always end up where we are now. There will always be one supreme 'gang' if you will. Thomas Jefferson knew this would happen when he made the claim that a revolution should take place every 20yrs just to ensure government didn't overgrow its boundaries. That's a bit excessive I think but he was trying to make the point that men are susceptible to corruption given the right circumstance.

Therefore it is my contention that for a true free market to work for any length of time it must be under a strict adherence to Law. When these laws are subverted for the powerful or rich they cease to have any effectiveness and essentially erode free market principles for their own gain.
Wasn't it law that screwed the Jews, the notion that salvation lay through it? Isn't it law that creates good and evil men, the illusion of righteousness and sin? Didn't we figure out a long time ago that the corruption you fear corrupts law when law is king? In a world of law and sinners, surely you can see that the road to salvation is straight and narrow like the eye of a needle, that the only way to salvation is through Jesus, or as I like to say, self forgiveness? The only way you will ever have your perfect non-government is when the world if filled by perfect non-men, folk who are completely dead to the ego. There is only one truth, that there is only love. Find that first and you will know what to do about the rest.
__________________
The above is probably just my usual sarcasm and in no way reflects my real opinion (and,or) may include subtleties of sufficient rarity as to appear to the unsuspecting like total gibberish. It may not be so much a matter that I'm far out, but rather that you have never been anywhere.
Moonbeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 12:20 PM   #8
AyashiKaibutsu
Diamond Member
 
AyashiKaibutsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 8,548
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundforbjt View Post
So, pretty much what we have now.
It's the light version of that time, but yea pretty much. Some people starting in the 80s had the bright idea that we were a better people now and things would all work out great in an 1800s/early 1900s type of situation. Funny, it's the same argument you hear from unreasoning (there's some that make more nuanced arguments) anti-union people.
__________________
The large print giveths and the small print taketh away.
AyashiKaibutsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 12:25 PM   #9
LegendKiller
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingTarget View Post
Have you ever played the Bioshock series?

On a more serious notes, the free market is efficient, but it fails to serve the needs of a lot of the population. It creates inhuman conditions that we as a society should not allow. We only see small echoes in the "free market" system we have now. Laisez-faire capitalism is a failure, and for good reason.
"Free market"s are far from "efficient". Even the weak form of efficient market hypothesis are wrong. The idea that the market is able to price in all risk and make an informed decision, as a whole, is wholly incorrect. The last 12 or so years prove that.

A "true" free market society cannot work unless humans become perfectly rational, as a whole, which is impossible. This is why libertopians are called that, they believe in a utopia that cannot exist. They completely ignore human greed and fear.
LegendKiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 12:38 PM   #10
Moonbeam
Elite Member
 
Moonbeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 51,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendKiller View Post
"Free market"s are far from "efficient". Even the weak form of efficient market hypothesis are wrong. The idea that the market is able to price in all risk and make an informed decision, as a whole, is wholly incorrect. The last 12 or so years prove that.

A "true" free market society cannot work unless humans become perfectly rational, as a whole, which is impossible. This is why libertopians are called that, they believe in a utopia that cannot exist. They completely ignore human greed and fear.
I think this is a different way to say what I said above and that it is widely recognized, but in other fields of human endeavor, neuroscience and psychology in particular, work is progressing on understanding the origins of fear and greed that one day may transform and liberate the human mind from them. In short, what you see as an inevitability of human nature may in fact be a curable disease. There may be hope and I believe there are many examples in history of individuals who got free.
__________________
The above is probably just my usual sarcasm and in no way reflects my real opinion (and,or) may include subtleties of sufficient rarity as to appear to the unsuspecting like total gibberish. It may not be so much a matter that I'm far out, but rather that you have never been anywhere.
Moonbeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 12:43 PM   #11
Gonad the Barbarian
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,760
Default

In a true free market society people will be strictly resources whose worth is only measured by their earning potential for themselves/others. People who own the factors of production will own the society. Redundant people will die cold, sick, and hungry. Sounds awesome.
__________________
Say No to job-killing regulations and Yes to people-killing jobs!
Gonad the Barbarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 02:05 PM   #12
DominionSeraph
Diamond Member
 
DominionSeraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Equestria
Posts: 7,503
Default

A completely free market would be self-defeating.
__________________
Strobe Last

"P&N: Not Quite as Bad as Stormfront"
DominionSeraph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 02:13 PM   #13
MovingTarget
Diamond Member
 
MovingTarget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,498
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendKiller View Post
"Free market"s are far from "efficient". Even the weak form of efficient market hypothesis are wrong. The idea that the market is able to price in all risk and make an informed decision, as a whole, is wholly incorrect. The last 12 or so years prove that.

A "true" free market society cannot work unless humans become perfectly rational, as a whole, which is impossible. This is why libertopians are called that, they believe in a utopia that cannot exist. They completely ignore human greed and fear.
I agree. You cannot assume that all economic actors are perfectly rational, which is what many unfortunately assume. The point I was trying to make is that even if it were, it would still not meet the needs of a society. I do stand corrected based on your comment though.
__________________
Insert signature here.
MovingTarget is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 03:41 PM   #14
Abraxas
Golden Member
 
Abraxas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendKiller View Post
"Free market"s are far from "efficient". Even the weak form of efficient market hypothesis are wrong. The idea that the market is able to price in all risk and make an informed decision, as a whole, is wholly incorrect. The last 12 or so years prove that.

A "true" free market society cannot work unless humans become perfectly rational, as a whole, which is impossible. This is why libertopians are called that, they believe in a utopia that cannot exist. They completely ignore human greed and fear.
Even more than that, even if we reach a state like planet Vulcan where all humans are always completely logical in their decisions, it still requires all actors have perfect knowledge. Logical actors, however, have a strong incentive to ensure perfect knowledge doesn't exist. That's why several times a year you get lawsuits directed at one pharmaceutical company or another indicating they suppressed findings in a trial indicating that drug Y increases the risk of heart attack or drug X can cause a stroke.

When your interest is making money, there is a pressure to lie about things that will cost you money if known. Even with the regulations we have now we have a problem with this, does anyone see it getting any better when there is absolutely no oversight of the market? You think drug companies would be more honest and more careful without having to win FDA approval? If so you're fucking nuts.
__________________
"Politics is weird. And creepy. And now I know lacks even the loosest attachment to anything like reality."
Abraxas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 03:47 PM   #15
First
Diamond Member
 
First's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 8,770
Default

lol
__________________
lulz Benghazi
First is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 04:01 PM   #16
Hayabusa Rider
Elite Member
 
Hayabusa Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 36,554
Default

Read Oliver Twist, about company stores and child labor. Then you'll how a free market economy works.
__________________
My favorite TV quote by Mr. Spock

"I object to you. I object to intellect without discipline; I object to power without constructive purpose."
Hayabusa Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 04:11 PM   #17
OneOfTheseDays
Diamond Member
 
OneOfTheseDays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,035
Default

We've already seen how a truly free market unregulated capitalistic society works. Go read a history book.
OneOfTheseDays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 05:00 PM   #18
Paul98
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,705
Default

It should be obvious without even looking back at history how terrible an idea that would be.
Paul98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 05:02 PM   #19
Incorruptible
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,391
Default

The US needs a Free Market instead of the crap given by obamney. The Free Market would fix the problems
Incorruptible is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 05:16 PM   #20
yllus
Lifer
Elite Member
 
yllus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 19,542
Default

Typically a government regulatory body is needed to force companies to adhere to the rules. In Canada, one of the reasons we did not suffer as badly in the banking crisis was because our banking regulators are centralized, federally run bodies who are knee deep in knowing what our banks are up to.

So, my question: Who functions in this role in your scenario?
__________________
AnandTech Forums for Mobile Devices

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H.L. Mencken
yllus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 05:32 PM   #21
bononos
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,304
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Incorruptible View Post
The US needs a Free Market instead of the crap given by obamney. The Free Market would fix the problems
Name one country which actually improved their economy (let alone achieve high growth rates with better social mobility) after implementing structural adjust policies to better align themselves with the free market system.
bononos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 05:53 PM   #22
Incorruptible
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,391
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bononos View Post
Name one country which actually improved their economy (let alone achieve high growth rates with better social mobility) after implementing structural adjust policies to better align themselves with the free market system.
No countries use the Free Market system, they all use socialism/corporatism/fascism

If the banks weren't bailed out then the situation would be much better. Ron Paul could have fixed the country but too many idiots prefer the status quo
Incorruptible is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 06:13 PM   #23
LegendKiller
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Incorruptible View Post
No countries use the Free Market system, they all use socialism/corporatism/fascism

If the banks weren't bailed out then the situation would be much better. Ron Paul could have fixed the country but too many idiots prefer the status quo
We've had situations far closer to the "free market" side and we, as a society, decided that we didn't like that as much.

Ron Paul couldn't change the batteries in a kid's toy let alone "fix" the country. His viewpoints lack any rational perspectives on human behavior and psychology. This is why they are utterly ridiculous.

Things wouldn't even be close to being "fixed" if the banks hadn't have been bailed out. This alone proves you have no logic. This is why you and your ilk cannot even breach 5% of the vote.

Last edited by LegendKiller; 11-04-2012 at 06:16 PM.
LegendKiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 07:41 PM   #24
bononos
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,304
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Incorruptible View Post
No countries use the Free Market system, they all use socialism/corporatism/fascism

.........
Then why are countries which are 'socialist' seem to do so much than the US? Why is it that countries which try to toe the line on WB/IMF demands to liberalize their economies do worse economically and socially than before? Why is it that countries in Latin America who should be the model (for US) on privatising social security and health care turned out to be horror stories?
bononos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 09:17 AM   #25
momeNt
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,242
Default

The arguments against free markets are like the boogeymen under your bed or in your closet. None are true but if you hear them often enough, you learn to fear them.

It is fear that puts us into submission, fear that a free grouping of individuals couldn't ward off an invading nation, fear that sandwiches will have arsenic instead of mustard. Fear that roving bandits will terrorize entire towns. Governments offer freedom from fear.
momeNt is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.