True Free Market Society

[PC Surgeon]

To think of a society completely run by free market is very hard to imagine. Yes we have all been 'indoctrinated' in a sense because this is all we know. The biggest hurdle? Fear. We do not know whats on the other side.

What does a world look like without government?

Who will protect those who cannot protect themselves?

Who will help those who cannot help themselves? (sick,elderly)

Wouldn't the weakest (and possibly poorest) suffer the most under a completely free market system?

I have put some thought into this. If we woke up tomorrow and the US government were dissolved you would have a mass vacuum of power. Whether it be another invading country or people from within wanting to control. Our founders knew this evil was within us and set out to provide the framework to restrict government. The Constitution was that binding law to forbid government from interfering with citizens everyday lives. That may have worked for 100yrs and I may be stretching it. The end result is that through time we will always end up where we are now. There will always be one supreme 'gang' if you will. Thomas Jefferson knew this would happen when he made the claim that a revolution should take place every 20yrs just to ensure government didn't overgrow its boundaries. That's a bit excessive I think but he was trying to make the point that men are susceptible to corruption given the right circumstance.

Therefore it is my contention that for a true free market to work for any length of time it must be under a strict adherence to Law. When these laws are subverted for the powerful or rich they cease to have any effectiveness and essentially erode free market principles for their own gain.

[AyashiKaibutsu]

I'm not really sure where you're going. You talk a lot about free markets and then say in order for them to work they must be constrained and held to it. Most people these days arguing for true free markets say all of our woes regarding them is because of the laws we imposed on them.

That said my opinion of truly free markets is such: Magic wand (invisible hand) waving "free markets" aren't the be all answer to society. There are lots of things they simply don't fix. Ways of gaining profit that follow the rules, but is still highly damaging to society. Money is a powerful influencer and there are times when the "market" doesn't act rationally as a whole in pursuit of it. These things have happened all throughout the history of markets (see tulip bubble as an example). A society's well being should not hinge on that, and much of what was done after the great depression was done to prevent society being so hinged on it again.

[MovingTarget]

Have you ever played the Bioshock series?

On a more serious notes, the free market is efficient, but it fails to serve the needs of a lot of the population. It creates inhuman conditions that we as a society should not allow. We only see small echoes in the "free market" system we have now. Laisez-faire capitalism is a failure, and for good reason.

[uclaLabrat]

It would look a lot like the mid-to-late 1800's, where we had a basically unregulated wall st, with robber barons, terrible conditions for the working class, concentration of the wealth at the very top, extreme boom-bust cycles as the asset bubbles expand and implode, extreme graft and corruption, and pretty much a shitty life for all those not named vanderbilt, carnegie, rockefeller, and morgan.

People who think an unfettered free market capitalism is the savior of all mankind are fucking morons who've never bothered to open a history book.

[Doppel]

Originally Posted by MovingTarget

Have you ever played the Bioshock series?

On a more serious notes, the free market is efficient, but it fails to serve the needs of a lot of the population. It creates inhuman conditions that we as a society should not allow. We only see small echoes in the "free market" system we have now. Laisez-faire capitalism is a failure, and for good reason.

I am playing bio shock for the first time now

[soundforbjt]

Originally Posted by uclaLabrat

It would look a lot like the mid-to-late 1800's, where we had a basically unregulated wall st, with robber barons, terrible conditions for the working class, concentration of the wealth at the very top, extreme boom-bust cycles as the asset bubbles expand and implode, extreme graft and corruption, and pretty much a shitty life for all those not named vanderbilt, carnegie, rockefeller, and morgan.

People who think an unfettered free market capitalism is the savior of all mankind are fucking morons who've never bothered to open a history book.

So, pretty much what we have now.

[Moonbeam]

Originally Posted by PC Surgeon

To think of a society completely run by free market is very hard to imagine. Yes we have all been 'indoctrinated' in a sense because this is all we know. The biggest hurdle? Fear. We do not know whats on the other side.

What does a world look like without government?

Who will protect those who cannot protect themselves?

Who will help those who cannot help themselves? (sick,elderly)

Wouldn't the weakest (and possibly poorest) suffer the most under a completely free market system?

I have put some thought into this. If we woke up tomorrow and the US government were dissolved you would have a mass vacuum of power. Whether it be another invading country or people from within wanting to control. Our founders knew this evil was within us and set out to provide the framework to restrict government. The Constitution was that binding law to forbid government from interfering with citizens everyday lives. That may have worked for 100yrs and I may be stretching it. The end result is that through time we will always end up where we are now. There will always be one supreme 'gang' if you will. Thomas Jefferson knew this would happen when he made the claim that a revolution should take place every 20yrs just to ensure government didn't overgrow its boundaries. That's a bit excessive I think but he was trying to make the point that men are susceptible to corruption given the right circumstance.

Therefore it is my contention that for a true free market to work for any length of time it must be under a strict adherence to Law. When these laws are subverted for the powerful or rich they cease to have any effectiveness and essentially erode free market principles for their own gain.

Wasn't it law that screwed the Jews, the notion that salvation lay through it? Isn't it law that creates good and evil men, the illusion of righteousness and sin? Didn't we figure out a long time ago that the corruption you fear corrupts law when law is king? In a world of law and sinners, surely you can see that the road to salvation is straight and narrow like the eye of a needle, that the only way to salvation is through Jesus, or as I like to say, self forgiveness? The only way you will ever have your perfect non-government is when the world if filled by perfect non-men, folk who are completely dead to the ego. There is only one truth, that there is only love. Find that first and you will know what to do about the rest.

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Originally Posted by soundforbjt

So, pretty much what we have now.

It's the light version of that time, but yea pretty much. Some people starting in the 80s had the bright idea that we were a better people now and things would all work out great in an 1800s/early 1900s type of situation. Funny, it's the same argument you hear from unreasoning (there's some that make more nuanced arguments) anti-union people.

[LegendKiller]

Originally Posted by MovingTarget

Have you ever played the Bioshock series?

On a more serious notes, the free market is efficient, but it fails to serve the needs of a lot of the population. It creates inhuman conditions that we as a society should not allow. We only see small echoes in the "free market" system we have now. Laisez-faire capitalism is a failure, and for good reason.

"Free market"s are far from "efficient". Even the weak form of efficient market hypothesis are wrong. The idea that the market is able to price in all risk and make an informed decision, as a whole, is wholly incorrect. The last 12 or so years prove that.

A "true" free market society cannot work unless humans become perfectly rational, as a whole, which is impossible. This is why libertopians are called that, they believe in a utopia that cannot exist. They completely ignore human greed and fear.

[Moonbeam]

Originally Posted by LegendKiller

"Free market"s are far from "efficient". Even the weak form of efficient market hypothesis are wrong. The idea that the market is able to price in all risk and make an informed decision, as a whole, is wholly incorrect. The last 12 or so years prove that.

A "true" free market society cannot work unless humans become perfectly rational, as a whole, which is impossible. This is why libertopians are called that, they believe in a utopia that cannot exist. They completely ignore human greed and fear.

I think this is a different way to say what I said above and that it is widely recognized, but in other fields of human endeavor, neuroscience and psychology in particular, work is progressing on understanding the origins of fear and greed that one day may transform and liberate the human mind from them. In short, what you see as an inevitability of human nature may in fact be a curable disease. There may be hope and I believe there are many examples in history of individuals who got free.

[Gonad the Barbarian]

In a true free market society people will be strictly resources whose worth is only measured by their earning potential for themselves/others. People who own the factors of production will own the society. Redundant people will die cold, sick, and hungry. Sounds awesome.

[DominionSeraph]

A completely free market would be self-defeating.

[MovingTarget]

Originally Posted by LegendKiller

"Free market"s are far from "efficient". Even the weak form of efficient market hypothesis are wrong. The idea that the market is able to price in all risk and make an informed decision, as a whole, is wholly incorrect. The last 12 or so years prove that.

A "true" free market society cannot work unless humans become perfectly rational, as a whole, which is impossible. This is why libertopians are called that, they believe in a utopia that cannot exist. They completely ignore human greed and fear.

I agree. You cannot assume that all economic actors are perfectly rational, which is what many unfortunately assume. The point I was trying to make is that even if it were, it would still not meet the needs of a society. I do stand corrected based on your comment though.

[Abraxas]

Originally Posted by LegendKiller

"Free market"s are far from "efficient". Even the weak form of efficient market hypothesis are wrong. The idea that the market is able to price in all risk and make an informed decision, as a whole, is wholly incorrect. The last 12 or so years prove that.

A "true" free market society cannot work unless humans become perfectly rational, as a whole, which is impossible. This is why libertopians are called that, they believe in a utopia that cannot exist. They completely ignore human greed and fear.

Even more than that, even if we reach a state like planet Vulcan where all humans are always completely logical in their decisions, it still requires all actors have perfect knowledge. Logical actors, however, have a strong incentive to ensure perfect knowledge doesn't exist. That's why several times a year you get lawsuits directed at one pharmaceutical company or another indicating they suppressed findings in a trial indicating that drug Y increases the risk of heart attack or drug X can cause a stroke.

When your interest is making money, there is a pressure to lie about things that will cost you money if known. Even with the regulations we have now we have a problem with this, does anyone see it getting any better when there is absolutely no oversight of the market? You think drug companies would be more honest and more careful without having to win FDA approval? If so you're fucking nuts.

[First]

lol

[Hayabusa Rider]

Read Oliver Twist, about company stores and child labor. Then you'll how a free market economy works.

[OneOfTheseDays]

We've already seen how a truly free market unregulated capitalistic society works. Go read a history book.

[Paul98]

It should be obvious without even looking back at history how terrible an idea that would be.

[Incorruptible]

The US needs a Free Market instead of the crap given by obamney. The Free Market would fix the problems

[yllus]

Typically a government regulatory body is needed to force companies to adhere to the rules. In Canada, one of the reasons we did not suffer as badly in the banking crisis was because our banking regulators are centralized, federally run bodies who are knee deep in knowing what our banks are up to.

So, my question: Who functions in this role in your scenario?

[bononos]

Originally Posted by Incorruptible

The US needs a Free Market instead of the crap given by obamney. The Free Market would fix the problems

Name one country which actually improved their economy (let alone achieve high growth rates with better social mobility) after implementing structural adjust policies to better align themselves with the free market system.

[Incorruptible]

Originally Posted by bononos

Name one country which actually improved their economy (let alone achieve high growth rates with better social mobility) after implementing structural adjust policies to better align themselves with the free market system.

No countries use the Free Market system, they all use socialism/corporatism/fascism

If the banks weren't bailed out then the situation would be much better. Ron Paul could have fixed the country but too many idiots prefer the status quo

[LegendKiller]

Originally Posted by Incorruptible

No countries use the Free Market system, they all use socialism/corporatism/fascism

If the banks weren't bailed out then the situation would be much better. Ron Paul could have fixed the country but too many idiots prefer the status quo

We've had situations far closer to the "free market" side and we, as a society, decided that we didn't like that as much.

Ron Paul couldn't change the batteries in a kid's toy let alone "fix" the country. His viewpoints lack any rational perspectives on human behavior and psychology. This is why they are utterly ridiculous.

Things wouldn't even be close to being "fixed" if the banks hadn't have been bailed out. This alone proves you have no logic. This is why you and your ilk cannot even breach 5% of the vote.

[bononos]

Originally Posted by Incorruptible

No countries use the Free Market system, they all use socialism/corporatism/fascism

.........

Then why are countries which are 'socialist' seem to do so much than the US? Why is it that countries which try to toe the line on WB/IMF demands to liberalize their economies do worse economically and socially than before? Why is it that countries in Latin America who should be the model (for US) on privatising social security and health care turned out to be horror stories?

[momeNt]

The arguments against free markets are like the boogeymen under your bed or in your closet. None are true but if you hear them often enough, you learn to fear them.

It is fear that puts us into submission, fear that a free grouping of individuals couldn't ward off an invading nation, fear that sandwiches will have arsenic instead of mustard. Fear that roving bandits will terrorize entire towns. Governments offer freedom from fear.