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Old 11-04-2012, 10:40 AM   #26
Fanatical Meat
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Ya mean like Clinton and obama served?
Here is the difference to me:
While Clinton did work the system to avoid the draft, it would be impossible to find him in a pro-war crowd. Obama was far too young to even be suggested to serve. Another real important point is I definitely would not say either Obama or Clinton are for projecting large amounts of troops anywhere. I can kind of say the same for Romney but hr talks like he is all for an Iran conflict but then that would impact his reelection chance but not doing so could lose conservative votes bah this hurts my brain too much. Mitt cannot be mailed down far too frustrating
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:41 AM   #27
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It's good that the right wingers will have no problem voting for a guy that avoided the draft until 1970 and didn't volunteer to serve in Vietnam.
Clinton proved that people don't give a shit about the draft dodgers anymore.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:50 AM   #28
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Clinton proved that people don't give a shit about the draft dodgers anymore.
Conservatives cared a lot about it... until their guy was doing it in an even more hypocritical way.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:56 AM   #29
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Did I touch a never or what, with clinton and the zero?
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:59 AM   #30
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Did I touch a never or what, with clinton and the zero?
no
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:01 AM   #31
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It takes a special type of person to have a pro war rally while enjoying a deferment... a conservative
Yep. Hypocrisy on the Right about Vietnam was astounding at the time, and is no less so today. If anything, their use of revisionist history wrt their own deeds is really the shameful part.

Being born in 1949, I lived that era, and successfully avoided being drafted. I opposed the war all along, and have never offered otherwise. Young men employed a variety of avoidance strategies, some that worked, some that didn't, some used their family connections, some used whatever port they could find in that storm.

Some used whatever methods they could to shorten their participation, some took alternatives like the TANG when they could get it, missionary work, scholastic studies, whatever. There's no shame in any of that, just as there is no glory in having been forced to fight.

The shame lies in having done one thing while claiming to have done another, and in denying the truth about it.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:08 AM   #32
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wow, after 5 years on the public spotlight, this singular quote 3 days before the election completely changes the way I feel about Romney.

thanks for bringing this vital information to light.
you havent been paying attention then. romney is the absolute worst politician in history when it comes to keeping stories straight. he is completely spineless, and totally void of any real ideas. obama isnt going to win this election, he is going to serve another term by default due to lack of competition.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:55 AM   #33
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What's the big deal here? I see no problem with Romney supporting the war but not wanting to serve.

Both rich and poor people have their roles to play in society. It would be a waste for someone of Romney's stature to go die in Vietnam.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:02 PM   #34
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What's the big deal here? I see no problem with Romney supporting the war but not wanting to serve.

Both rich and poor people have their roles to play in society. It would be a waste for someone of Romney's stature to go die in Vietnam.
lol
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:28 PM   #35
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Your arguments are long and drawn out to attempt to hide what simple evidence suggests. It doesn't take them a lot to point out theirs because theirs is what is supported by the reality of someone who ran away to a mansion in France while supporting the Vietnam War.

Key word is bolded. Suggestions by themselves are not facts and must be investigated/considered from multiple angles. In this thread I've shown several other common, everyday situations that could explain Romney's actions and are just as if not more likely to be true as HomerJS's assertion.

Just because something is said more succinctly doesn't it make it more valid. It just makes it simple. Critical thinking is often far less simple. My "arguments" (which they technically aren't, they're faults in HomerJS's argument) are drawn out because they're described in greater detail than HomerJS could hope to bring.

Last edited by irishScott; 11-04-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:39 PM   #36
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Seriously, would you all argue that every American who actively supported the war in Afghanistan is somehow morally obligated to go fight it if a draft happens? Do yourselves a favor and think critically about that. I support the war, but I think I serve my country better by being an Engineering student and maybe even one day developing weapons that could save soldiers' lives, so if a draft came around I'd use all legal means to get a deferment/not be drafted. Guess I'm a chickenhawk.

In any case, reading the rest of the thread it's clear I'm not going to get anywhere. Rather than analyzing the situation objectively people are putting words/actions in Romney's mouth because that's what they want to see. Have fun!
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:44 PM   #37
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In any case, reading the rest of the thread it's clear I'm not going to get anywhere. Rather than analyzing the situation objectively people are putting words/actions in Romney's mouth because that's what they want to see. Have fun!
If Romney was a college student or doing in missionary work in somewhere like Africa or Haiti, I would give him a pass.

There are obvious conclusions to be had from someone running away to a mansion in France during a draft. It's you that chooses to live in a distorted reality bubble.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:03 PM   #38
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If Romney was a college student or doing in missionary work in somewhere like Africa or Haiti, I would give him a pass.

There are obvious conclusions to be had from someone running away to a mansion in France during a draft. It's you that chooses to live in a distorted reality bubble.
He's a Mormon. They go on missions to freaking everywhere and the mission locations are decided by the church. They can volunteer to do missionary work or not, but if they do they typically don't decide where they're sent.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:06 PM   #39
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He's a Mormon. They go on missions to freaking everywhere and the mission locations are decided by the church. They can volunteer to do missionary work or not, but if they do they typically don't decide where they're sent.
Keep thinking they had no pull in the church and he just happened to luck out with a mansion in France. Man the gullibility of some people is incredulous. Do you not have even the slightest bullshit meter in regards to information you want to hear?
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:18 PM   #40
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Keep thinking they had no pull in the church and he just happened to luck out with a mansion in France. Man the gullibility of some people is incredulous. Do you not have even the slightest bullshit meter in regards to information you want to hear?
The difference between us is I admit the possibility that Romney could be bullshitting us, but I also point out other explanations that are just as likely. You could be right, but you have no evidence that you are. You have your subjective perception of Romeny's character and suspicion. If you went to the press and tried to publish the view that Romeny was lying about his missionary work, you'd be laughed at.

I love how with every hole I poke in the arguments here, it's just smoothed over with another assumption and zero facts. The most laughable being assumptions of me that would (if true) conveniently invalidate all the holes I've poked.

Go get even an anecdote that Romney's family pull was responsible for him being sent to France, and I'll be impressed.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:18 PM   #41
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Seriously, would you all argue that every American who actively supported the war in Afghanistan is somehow morally obligated to go fight it if a draft happens? Do yourselves a favor and think critically about that. I support the war, but I think I serve my country better by being an Engineering student and maybe even one day developing weapons that could save soldiers' lives, so if a draft came around I'd use all legal means to get a deferment/not be drafted. Guess I'm a chickenhawk.
I think that's a reasonable position. But there's three problems with it as I see being applied to Romney.

First, he didn't go to study engineering to hopefully help his country in some indirect way. He went to study business to make himself lots of money.

Second, he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. He chose not to join the military, but is now attempting to score points by saying he wanted to join the military.

Three, the phrasing suggests he would have joined the military if he had the opportunity, but it was denied -- as if he had a medical condition or something. As you yourself have quoted, he DID have the chance to join, and he passed on it.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:23 PM   #42
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The difference between us is I admit the possibility that Romney could be bullshitting us, but I also point out other explanations that are just as likely. You could be right, but you have no evidence that you are. You have your subjective perception of Romeny's character and suspicion. If you went to the press and tried to publish the view that Romeny was lying about his missionary work, you'd be laughed at.

I love how with every hole I poke in the arguments here, it's just smoothed over with another assumption and zero facts. The most laughable being assumptions of me that would (if true) conveniently invalidate all the holes I've poked.

Go get even an anecdote that Romney's family pull was responsible for him being sent to France, and I'll be impressed.
False equivalences don't justify anything. There's weights in probability and one outcome is much more likely than the other. There's a reasonable doubt and then there's just being a gullible fool.

Pointing out the obvious from history isn't making assumptions. You haven't poked holes in anything.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:28 PM   #43
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I think that's a reasonable position. But there's three problems with it as I see being applied to Romney.

First, he didn't go to study engineering to hopefully help his country in some indirect way. He went to study business to make himself lots of money.

Second, he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. He chose not to join the military, but is now attempting to score points by saying he wanted to join the military.

Three, the phrasing suggests he would have joined the military if he had the opportunity, but it was denied -- as if he had a medical condition or something. As you yourself have quoted, he DID have the chance to join, and he passed on it.
It was a valid deferment. Under the law he did his duty. Law may not be perfect, but that's life. For whatever reason he declined to serve and used his resources to avoid it. Why? No one knows.

Perhaps. The way he phrased it says nothing more to me than "I once wanted to be in the military, but decided to do other things instead." Which, even if politically motivated, is saying nothing of significance. I'm sure most American males have felt that way at some point in their life, if only for a day.

Besides, it may not be the most morally righteous cause, but one could argue that making money/a successful business and paying the taxes that go with it are indirectly supporting a war.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:39 PM   #44
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False equivalences don't justify anything. There's weights in probability and one outcome is much more likely than the other. There's a reasonable doubt and then there's just being a gullible fool.

Pointing out the obvious from history isn't making assumptions. You haven't poked holes in anything.
So your argument is: "Romney is more likely to be lying based on what I've seen of his political history, therefore I'm assuming that he is and will extrapolate facts accordingly."

My argument is: "Romney is a human like anyone else, and it makes perfect sense that at age 19 he would consider, even desire to join the military and then not do so."

The doubt in this instance is quite reasonable. It's just that you have your comfortable set-in-stone perception of Romney and are just assuming everything he says that doesn't fit with that perception is a lie.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:45 PM   #45
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Which, even if politically motivated, is saying nothing of significance.
This is the core of the disagreement.

If it came from anyone else, maybe. But Romney is the most dishonest politician I have ever had the displeasure of witnessing. I find his comment very self-serving.

I suppose, given that everything he says is politically motivated and self-serving, that this isn't "significant" compared to the rest of what he says. But it's still pretty ugly.

He was once asked why none of his sons ever served in the military. He replied saying something like "they were serving their country by helping me get elected". I find that both disgraceful and insulting to my intelligence.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:55 PM   #46
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This is the core of the disagreement.

If it came from anyone else, maybe. But Romney is the most dishonest politician I have ever had the displeasure of witnessing. I find his comment very self-serving.

I suppose, given that everything he says is politically motivated and self-serving, that this isn't "significant" compared to the rest of what he says. But it's still pretty ugly.

He was once asked why none of his sons ever served in the military. He replied saying something like "they were serving their country by helping me get elected". I find that both disgraceful and insulting to my intelligence.
How is it serving him at all? He might as well have said "I once went through puberty, and was quite insecure for a time." Politically motivated or not, my reaction to that (and the original statement) is "no shit." Judging by this thread the general reaction here would be to assume he never went through an insecure time during puberty.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:59 PM   #47
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It was a valid deferment. Under the law he did his duty. Law may not be perfect, but that's life. For whatever reason he declined to serve and used his resources to avoid it. Why? No one knows.

Perhaps. The way he phrased it says nothing more to me than "I once wanted to be in the military, but decided to do other things instead." Which, even if politically motivated, is saying nothing of significance. I'm sure most American males have felt that way at some point in their life, if only for a day.

Besides, it may not be the most morally righteous cause, but one could argue that making money/a successful business and paying the taxes that go with it are indirectly supporting a war.
He avoids paying as much tax as he can too. If he had shown his tax returns he would have no chance of being elected. Imagine hiding from the American people the truth about yourself that would disqualify you from office. Shameful. And because he is shameless he has a chance to be elected because conservative egotists can't face the fact they will vote for scum for partisan reasons. Fucking masters of denial. By avoiding personal feelings of shame and disgust you have become disgusting.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:45 PM   #48
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No, you cannot dodge a draft and actively go and rally in favor of.

Romney is without question a sorry mother fucker. The powerful people in the world don't fight in wars they just make sure they turn out in their favor.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:11 PM   #49
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I think that's a reasonable position. But there's three problems with it as I see being applied to Romney.

First, he didn't go to study engineering to hopefully help his country in some indirect way. He went to study business to make himself lots of money.

Second, he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. He chose not to join the military, but is now attempting to score points by saying he wanted to join the military.

Three, the phrasing suggests he would have joined the military if he had the opportunity, but it was denied -- as if he had a medical condition or something. As you yourself have quoted, he DID have the chance to join, and he passed on it.
/thread
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:25 PM   #50
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I think that's a reasonable position. But there's three problems with it as I see being applied to Romney.

First, he didn't go to study engineering to hopefully help his country in some indirect way. He went to study business to make himself lots of money.

Second, he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. He chose not to join the military, but is now attempting to score points by saying he wanted to join the military.

Three, the phrasing suggests he would have joined the military if he had the opportunity, but it was denied -- as if he had a medical condition or something. As you yourself have quoted, he DID have the chance to join, and he passed on it.
++

It's one thing to either draft dodge/not volunteer/whatever and not be in the military.

It's another things to get out of joining the military, but protest for a war, and then say years later you wish you could have joined the military

Hypocrisy of the highest order, which for Mitt, is just another routine lie out of all the other lies he has said.

He was for the against the military before he was for the military.Standard Mitt 180deg flip flop. Where's the etch-a-sketch again?
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