Better off today than 4 years ago

[OneOfTheseDays]

Why do conservatives on this forum all of a sudden act like they care about deficits and spending cuts?

You didn't when Bush was in office for 8 years and unleashed most of the debt we are now buried under. Two wars and a massive tax cut we couldn't afford to pay for. All of which accomplished absolutely nothing of importance as far as history is concerned.

And now you want to bring these same people back into office? Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME? SERIOUSLY!!!!! GTFO.

[a777pilot]

LOL!

Tax cuts never have to be paid for, only spending has to be.

[JEDIYoda]

Originally Posted by Farang

Can someone help me understand the avoidance of this question by Democrats on today's Sunday shows? Gov. O'Malley even answered "no."

This almost seems coordinated. Especially since the obvious talking point seems to be, 'Yes. Four years ago we were losing jobs at a clip of 800,000 per month, etc. etc and Obama took in and turned the economy around, even if recovery is slower than we would like.'

Given that Democrats and the Obama campaign are pretty sharp with their messaging, am I missing something here? Is there something advantageous in answering "No" to this question, or just rolling over and accepting defeat? My only explanation would be a setup for the debates, but that seems too complicated.

I'm pro-Obama but I'm looking for as objective as answer as you can come up with.. even a Republican might acknowledge the Obama campaign could better answer this question.

Thats a loaded question....
You need to understand that the Republicans have done nothing since Obama has taken office but to undermine the leadership of this country in order to prepare for the 2012 elections....so very sad!!

[soulcougher73]

Of course were better off without Bush/Cheney/Republicans...everyone knows this.

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by OneOfTheseDays

Why do conservatives on this forum all of a sudden act like they care about deficits and spending cuts?

You didn't when Bush was in office for 8 years and unleashed most of the debt we are now buried under. Two wars and a massive tax cut we couldn't afford to pay for. All of which accomplished absolutely nothing of importance as far as history is concerned.

And now you want to bring these same people back into office? Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME? SERIOUSLY!!!!! GTFO.

This x16 trillion

[tcG]

The last 50+ years is one great big trend of prices increasing exponentially more than income.

Productivity increases and technological innovations should have ensured that people would be getting better off, not worse off. Instead, people are working twice as long for lower quality stuff.

[simpletron]

Originally Posted by Tom

Stock market's higher. I know lots of people who's 401ks are in much better shape.

While it is true that the DOW/SP500 are up from when obama, many poor don't own stock so it has no effect on them. Homes, which have lost value, are the largest asset for the middle class. Thus the net worth of many americans is down over obama's term and are massively down from their peaks in 2007.

Originally Posted by Tom

More people are working.

Using Seasonal adjusted data, from jan 2009 to Jul 2012 we lost 323K jobs. and from Jul 2008 to July 2012, we lost 3.9 million jobs. We're still down over 6 million jobs from the peak in 2007

Originally Posted by Tom

kids don't lose family healthcare during college.
women are supposed to get equal pay for equal work.

Kids could be on family insurance until their 24 before obamacare. There hasn't been much movement on equal pay for women.

Originally Posted by Tom

fewer Americans die in Iraq.
Osama is dead.

Two forgien policy issues that have little effect on how most feel on the economy. These just remind me that the government is still wasting billions of dollars in iraq/afghanistan instead of spending that money back home.

Originally Posted by Tom

We might get out of Afghanistan.
Stupid Bush tax cuts might finally go away.
we might be moving to fewer numbers of people without health insurance, reversing a bad trend.

There are a lot of "might happens" and no has happened.

Originally Posted by Tom

Gays can marry in some states.
some children still learn about evolution.

Two wedge issues that have little effect on how most feel on the economy. Also obama hasn't done much on these issue.(the state/local governments have taken the lead)

Originally Posted by Tom

banks are a lot healthier.

Thank you federal reserve.

Obama can't run on the economic recovery because most poeple are going to naturally compare things to prerecession levels, where more people were working, many were making more money and wealthier. Additionally there was just more opticmsm back then than now on future.

[simpletron]

Originally Posted by Lemon law

Why not simplify the question and ask are we better off than we were 2 years ago?
Because 2 years ago the American voters swung enough votes in the house to see it pass into republican hands. Along with all those tea partiers who promised us they would improve the economy. And all we got is another 2 years of the GOP sabatoging the democratic agenda to regulate the financial chicanery that got us in this mess in the first place. And since budgets originate in the house, the GOP and the budget Paul Ryan submitted offered only a few billion in cuts and not the 100 or 200 billion we would need to even slow the defecet spending. And on the income side, the GOP opposes tax increases even to only the very rich.

If the GOP congress we the American people elected in 2010 has made things even worse, why should we American voters believe the same warmed over GOP lies in 11/2012?

I would advise you not to proceed with this line of arguement because you are going to get burned. employment numbers are up, unemployment is down, stock market up, home vaules almost flat,... overall we have seen a slow and steady improvement in economy for the last 2 years, which by your arguement we should contribute to the republicans.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by simpletron

While it is true that the DOW/SP500 are up from when obama, many poor don't own stock so it has no effect on them. Homes, which have lost value, are the largest asset for the middle class. Thus the net worth of many americans is down over obama's term and are massively down from their peaks in 2007.


Using Seasonal adjusted data, from jan 2009 to Jul 2012 we lost 323K jobs. and from Jul 2008 to July 2012, we lost 3.9 million jobs. We're still down over 6 million jobs from the peak in 2007


Kids could be on family insurance until their 24 before obamacare. There hasn't been much movement on equal pay for women.


Two forgien policy issues that have little effect on how most feel on the economy. These just remind me that the government is still wasting billions of dollars in iraq/afghanistan instead of spending that money back home.


There are a lot of "might happens" and no has happened.


Two wedge issues that have little effect on how most feel on the economy. Also obama hasn't done much on these issue.(the state/local governments have taken the lead)


Thank you federal reserve.

Obama can't run on the economic recovery because most poeple are going to naturally compare things to prerecession levels, where more people were working, many were making more money and wealthier. Additionally there was just more opticmsm back then than now on future.

"from the peak in 2007"

So Obama became president in 2007 ?

Uh, the Federal Reserve required action by Congress which would never have happened without Obama's support.

Kids could not stay on family healthcare if they had to work to go to college.

The reason there's less optimism is, advertising works. For 4 years there's been a steady drum beat of negativity and fear-mongering by Republicans and their allies, like Fox News.

[Farang]

lmao every thread in this forum is exactly the same

[blackangst1]

Originally Posted by Farang

lmao every thread in this forum is exactly the same

Pretty much they all end up the same.

[Farang]

Originally Posted by blackangst1

Pretty much they all end up the same.

I did get a good answer though. It looks like Democrats thought it backfired with all the attention saying 'no' got, and have pivoted to the more obvious argument I mentioned in the OP

[boomerang]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Who was president 4 years ago? Oh yeah...it was Bush....and we were in the beginning of the 2nd greatest economic downturn in our country's history. Between Jan and Aug 2008, we lost 605,000 jobs. So far this year, we have gained 1,017,000 jobs.

4 Years ago, I worked in a restaurant and delivered pizza just to get by. Now, I have graduated college and found a well paying job.

Fuck yeah it's better.

So without Obama in office you'd not have graduated college? For a college grad, your reasoning skills are the suck and I've just got to say it, you've found a good paying job.

[boomerang]

[IronWing]

Originally Posted by boomerang

So without Obama in office you'd not have graduated college? For a college grad, your reasoning skills are the suck and I've just got to say it, you've found a good paying job.

The question wasn't "Did Obama make your life better".

[simpletron]

Originally Posted by Tom

"from the peak in 2007"

So Obama became president in 2007 ?

Uh, the Federal Reserve required action by Congress which would never have happened without Obama's support.

Kids could not stay on family healthcare if they had to work to go to college.

The reason there's less optimism is, advertising works. For 4 years there's been a steady drum beat of negativity and fear-mongering by Republicans and their allies, like Fox News.

Obama wasn't the president 4 years ago either. While I understand that you're trying to make this question "are you better off today than on obama's inauguration?". It simply won't be framed that way. It will be framed as "are you better off today or before the recession" because that will resonate with the masses.

You may want to look up PDCF, TAF, TSLF and the whole fuss about the federal reserve not reporting to congress... federal reserve audit.

Kids could stay on parent's plan if they were a tax dependent. I've had a kid in college every year since 2003, they have all work every summer more that full-time and been on my health plan until they got a real job after college.

No fear mongering is needed when ~10 million people lose their job, stock market get cut in half and home value drops over 25%. It takes a while for people to regain confidence after a lost like that. More people lost their job during the recession than the viewership of fox news.

[shortylickens]

Even if the question were legitimate, this thread has proven nobody knows the real answer anyway.

[boomerang]

Originally Posted by IronWing

The question wasn't "Did Obama make your life better".

He drew a parallel there that I know you couldn't have overlooked.

[MovingTarget]

Originally Posted by boomerang

Yeah, that Republican HOR he stands to inherit would make anyone facepalm.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Farang

Can someone help me understand the avoidance of this question by Democrats on today's Sunday shows? Gov. O'Malley even answered "no."

This almost seems coordinated. Especially since the obvious talking point seems to be, 'Yes. Four years ago we were losing jobs at a clip of 800,000 per month, etc. etc and Obama took in and turned the economy around, even if recovery is slower than we would like.'

Given that Democrats and the Obama campaign are pretty sharp with their messaging, am I missing something here? Is there something advantageous in answering "No" to this question, or just rolling over and accepting defeat?

You've basically answered your own question. The problem with answering "No" is that it fails to convey the facts of the matter. No--many Americans are not better off today than they were four years ago--because the tremendous amount of damage that the Republicans did to the economy the last time they held office was overwhelming.

So, you see, it's impossible to give a proper answer with a simple "Yes" or "No" answer.

[Double Trouble]

Originally Posted by simpletron

While it is true that the DOW/SP500 are up from when obama, many poor don't own stock so it has no effect on them. Homes, which have lost value, are the largest asset for the middle class. Thus the net worth of many americans is down over obama's term and are massively down from their peaks in 2007.


Using Seasonal adjusted data, from jan 2009 to Jul 2012 we lost 323K jobs. and from Jul 2008 to July 2012, we lost 3.9 million jobs. We're still down over 6 million jobs from the peak in 2007


Kids could be on family insurance until their 24 before obamacare. There hasn't been much movement on equal pay for women.


Two forgien policy issues that have little effect on how most feel on the economy. These just remind me that the government is still wasting billions of dollars in iraq/afghanistan instead of spending that money back home.


There are a lot of "might happens" and no has happened.


Two wedge issues that have little effect on how most feel on the economy. Also obama hasn't done much on these issue.(the state/local governments have taken the lead)


Thank you federal reserve.

Obama can't run on the economic recovery because most poeple are going to naturally compare things to prerecession levels, where more people were working, many were making more money and wealthier. Additionally there was just more opticmsm back then than now on future.

Good post, pretty much right on the money

[Double Trouble]

Originally Posted by MovingTarget

Yeah, that Republican HOR he stands to inherit would make anyone facepalm.

To you (and others) who keep trying to bring up the republicans as the reason for not being able to get things turned around... wouldn't that be a good reason not to vote for Obama? There is no reason to think that congress (senate or house) is going to be significantly different over the next four year term.

That's not my position, just pointing out that using obstruction as the reason for not getting things accomplished is essentially an argument for not voting for Obama again.

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

You've basically answered your own question. The problem with answering "No" is that it fails to convey the facts of the matter. No--many Americans are not better off today than they were four years ago--because the tremendous amount of damage that the Republicans did to the economy the last time they held office was overwhelming.

So, you see, it's impossible to give a proper answer with a simple "Yes" or "No" answer.

Yeah, the Dems really need to orchestrate a better response to this than either yes or no. Preface any answer with something like "an out of control bus doesn't stop the moment you hit the brakes."

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally Posted by Double Trouble

To you (and others) who keep trying to bring up the republicans as the reason for not being able to get things turned around... wouldn't that be a good reason not to vote for Obama? There is no reason to think that congress (senate or house) is going to be significantly different over the next four year term.

That's not my position, just pointing out that using obstruction as the reason for not getting things accomplished is essentially an argument for not voting for Obama again.

In other words we need to give in to the hostage takers.

[Exterous]

Originally Posted by mshan

Might be echoing what CEO of Toll Brothers said on conference call in last year or so.

People have been putting off buying a house for so many years, but are now ready to just get on with their lives (consciously or subconsciously, they probably realize their personal situation is much better than the gloom and doom they see on tv). Married couple with small baby and puppy years ago now have child and grown dog and want to move into house, or baby boomers finally want to buy their retirement home.

Really does seem like we're back to 2007 (at least for those who have a full time job and don't fear being let go right now), but without the froth of the easy money credit bubble years...

They key question is whether this is the result of improved economic conditions or pent-up demand. Have we hit a point where people are buying houses because the economy has improved or because they finally paid down their mortgage enough to afford a needed move?* Same thing with vacations. Have people gone without vacations for a number of years so they are taking one again? Wages are still down but so is revolving credit. Maybe it was time to take that long awaited vacation?

*I suspect for houses it is a mixture of both. A small increase in housing prices has decreased the number of underwater mortgages by a small amount. House sales are also up but I can't tease out of the data pent up demand vs economic conditions improved