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Old 05-25-2012, 06:44 AM   #226
ShintaiDK
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Wireless basicly only works as long as its heavily capped and controlled. Thats the main problem.

While we got a superb network compared to USA for 3G, 4G etc here. And speeds are really good and uncapped. And it flies in every normal day. However whenever there is some problem with any landbased access. (Cable, dsl, fiber etc.) Then the wireless services more or less instantly gets so hammered that you feel you are on a old 28.8K modem. And no, you cant just put up x more basestations.

In my eyes, wireless will always be a secondary service.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:44 AM   #227
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But when 10,000 subscribers are in your area, and all on your tower, what speeds will you get?

FIOS is a lot more consistent in terms of real speed, I think.

I have FIOS, and other than the expense (it is expensive), it's pretty decent.



Edit: And as you can see from the respective screenshots, my FIOS has about 1/3 the latency of your 4G connection. FIOS (well, wired internet in general) will ALWAYS be superior for online gaming than wireless, IMHO.
I didn't meant to imply that 4G LTE is better, but when trying to minimize build out costs and maximize profits, FiOS isn't the path any US ISPs are taking anymore.
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Old 05-25-2012, 01:20 PM   #228
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Intel has already locked down the roadmap to 5 nm process technology:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/d...hnologies.html

http://www.techspot.com/news/48577-i...m-process.html

Some years after that we'll stop using nm units and switch to perhaps 800 pm chips...
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Old 05-25-2012, 01:32 PM   #229
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Wireless basicly only works as long as its heavily capped and controlled. Thats the main problem.

While we got a superb network compared to USA for 3G, 4G etc here. And speeds are really good and uncapped. And it flies in every normal day. However whenever there is some problem with any landbased access. (Cable, dsl, fiber etc.) Then the wireless services more or less instantly gets so hammered that you feel you are on a old 28.8K modem. And no, you cant just put up x more basestations.

In my eyes, wireless will always be a secondary service.
Correct. What many fail to recognize is that LTE currently has excellent speeds/latency because of low utilization. The maximum spectral efficiency for LTE is 30bps/Hz download, so a 20 MHz band caps out at 600 Mbps... that has to be shared by however many users are on that station. Even if you go down to neighborhood serving 'femtocell' stations, at 20 users you're already down to 30 Mbps. They may well still go that route however - so long as the equipment cost/maintenance is less than whatever's necessary to do a wired connection then it makes sense. Both scenarios require quite a bit of fiber optic cable put in, just that one avoids the last short length to individual homes.
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Old 05-26-2012, 09:17 PM   #230
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Unless Intel starts producing products from theory to implementation all on their own, Apple style + fabs, the OEMs won't play their games for much longer.
I've been wondering if Intel's plan is not to be so dependent on the large established OEMs? Maybe Intel will evolve "Form Factor Reference Design" (FFRD) to the point where even a white box company make a make a useful and competitive device of it?

Now as far Intel building its own devices (like Apple) that would make sense if the appropriate profit margins can be charged. However, I am skeptical this will happen if FFRD becomes highly developed and the company becomes skillful at selling services---> http://forums.anandtech.com/showthre...432&highlight=

Of course, how Intel sells those services will be of vital importance. Can Intel position these services in a such a way that they are actually a good deal for the customer on all levels?
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Old 05-27-2012, 02:54 PM   #231
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Interesting.

You are honestly taking the argument that the cost for deploying successive advancements in hardline technology for the last mile will not become prohibitive in the face of rapidly declining costs of deploying successive advancements in wireless technology for the last mile?

My mom happens to be a clearwire subscriber for her internet at home. When I visit her I cannot distinguish between her internet responsiveness and mine here with cable. And that is today, not 10 yrs from now.

Whoever spends the money to run a mile of fibre optic cable to her house is wasting their money digging up the road, they'd be much better off to just continue upgrading the clearwire baseband as time rolls on.
Btw, I just read an article on DSLReports about Verizon trying to push their DSL subscribers over to 4G LTE.

But the thing that doesn't jive with your posts, is the cost structure. If wireless is going to be cheaper than wired (which I don't believe for a second), then why is Verizon charging overages on wireless?

Truth is, big telco/comms companies see $$$ when they think wireless. $10 overage charges per Gig over your caps.

Most wired internet (well, Verizon at least, but not Comcast) does NOT have caps.

You can clearly see the motivation for companies to be able to meter and charge per Gigabyte for service.

It's not "better", it's not "cheaper". It's just an opportunity for the big telcos to make even MORE money.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:15 PM   #232
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Without government funding AMD would have already bit the dust. At this point Intel has a virtual Monopoly. The only reason for Intel to cooperate with anyone is to keep from being singled out as a monopoly by the EU and the USA Government. The problem with a monopoly is that improvement become slower to be realized and prices are kept artificially high due to lack of competition.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:23 PM   #233
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Of course, how Intel sells those services will be of vital importance. Can Intel position these services in a such a way that they are actually a good deal for the customer on all levels?
Not without competition it won't happen.

The Intel of yesteryear used to make only Microprocessors. That's it. They've since delved into SSDs, Mobos, NICs, Graphics and even designed products like the Ultrabook concept as well as that TV rumor. The next logical step for Intel, assuming they can get away with the backlash, is to wrap all of this up in plastic and put an Intel logo on both sides of the product and not just a small sticker. I guess it's just a matter of money. If the OEMs pushing their own products would potentially mean less $$ for Intel than making the products and competing with the OEMs themselves then I'm sure they'd do it. Unlike Apple, Intel controls pretty much everything from the design > fab > product minus the plastic whereas Apple does it from the plastic backwards.

I don't think it's even in the realm of possibility at the moment because things are going well for Intel with the OEMs and everyone against a monopoly would quickly back AMD or other chip manufacturers in such a move but if you look at the direction Intel's been headed the past few years you certainly can't assert with absolute certainty that it won't ever happen.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:33 PM   #234
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Not without competition it won't happen.

The Intel of yesteryear used to make only Microprocessors. That's it. They've since delved into SSDs, Mobos, NICs, Graphics and even designed products like the Ultrabook concept as well as that TV rumor. The next logical step for Intel, assuming they can get away with the backlash, is to wrap all of this up in plastic and put an Intel logo on both sides of the product and not just a small sticker. I guess it's just a matter of money. If the OEMs pushing their own products would potentially mean less $$ for Intel than making the products and competing with the OEMs themselves then I'm sure they'd do it. Unlike Apple, Intel controls pretty much everything from the design > fab > product minus the plastic whereas Apple does it from the plastic backwards.

I don't think it's even in the realm of possibility at the moment because things are going well for Intel with the OEMs and everyone against a monopoly would quickly back AMD or other chip manufacturers in such a move but if you look at the direction Intel's been headed the past few years you certainly can't assert with absolute certainty that it won't ever happen.
that will only happen if intel can get a high margin on that product.
Notice how AFTER they got a lot of manufactors to compete in the SSD market...Intel let go...and now just feeds the Enterprise and HIGH end customers...the area with high magins.

Intel won't go all competitive in a low margin area...it's not in their "nature
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:37 PM   #235
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Notice how AFTER they got a lot of manufactors to compete in the SSD market...Intel let go...and now just feeds the Enterprise and HIGH end customers...the area with high magins.
Huh? They just recently released a new econo-class SSD...?
http://newsroom.intel.com/community/...ssd-330-series

That's not exactly letting go. Furthermore, they went with SandForce instead of Marvell to increase their sales and lower the cost of their SSDs. Compare the prices of the 520 and 330 to the 510 Elm Crest drives. It's almost double.

They're competing in the "low margin" area with SSDs already, they're just charging a bit extra for their 5-year warranty + custom firmware.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:47 PM   #236
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Huh? They just recently released a new econo-class SSD...?
http://newsroom.intel.com/community/...ssd-330-series

That's not exactly letting go. Furthermore, they went with SandForce instead of Marvell to increase their sales and lower the cost of their SSDs. Compare the prices of the 520 and 330 to the 510 Elm Crest drives. It's almost double.

They're competing in the "low margin" area with SSDs already, they're just charging a bit extra for their 5-year warranty + custom firmware.

You should read up:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4902/i...0-200gb-review

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When Intel entered the SSD market one of its declared goals was to bring the technology into the mainstream. The goal was so important to Intel that its consumer drive was branded X25-M, with the M standing for mainstream. Intel's desire for SSD ubiquity wasn't entirely altruistic however. Mechanical storage acted as a potential gate to increasing CPU performance. Eventually, without significant improvements in IO performance, CPU improvements would be less visible to most users. SSDs would help alleviate this bottleneck.
It wouldn't be untrue to say that Intel accomplished its mission. The client SSD market was in a state of disarray before Intel arrived on the scene. Although we still have problems today, there are a number of affordable options for end users and lots of competition. Samsung, Marvell, Indilinx, JMicron and even SanDisk are now vying for control of the market.
With healthy competition, significant performance improvements and (hopefully) improved reliability in the consumer SSD space, Intel will actually begin defocusing itself from this market over the coming years. Intel needs to keep margins as high as possible to appease shareholders, and the consumer SSD business is in a race to the bottom. Dollars per GB are all that matter here once you deliver a certain level of performance and reliability.
Intel won't abandon the consumer SSD market completely, it will still compete in the high end space but there's a good reason that the mainstream moniker has been dropped from Intel's product names. Intel will shift more of its attention to the enterprise space, bringing that technology to the high end desktop/workstation users where it can (e.g. Cherryville will be focused on both enterprise and enthusiast desktop users). But as you have already seen, I wouldn't expect Intel to actively compete in driving mainstream SSD pricing down further. That market now belongs to the players I mentioned above.
So you one single nitpick with my post endeed up right back at the key with Intel:

HIGH margins.

It should be public knowlegde in 2012...
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:05 PM   #237
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How does any of that contradict what I said? Maybe you like arguing? Trust me, I know Intel doesn't do low prices. I've been watching the stock tickers

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But as you have already seen, I wouldn't expect Intel to actively compete in driving mainstream SSD pricing down further. That market now belongs to the players I mentioned above.
AT is wrong on that, though not completely. They are driving the prices down -- the mere fact that they're producing cheap SSDs should tell you this -- by competing with the other SSD makers and thinning out the herd of "manufacturers" that currently live in the SSD world.

http://www.techspot.com/news/48345-l...ng-prices.html

If Intel worked off high margins and quality they'd still be making only Marvell-based drives at skyrocket prices. Instead they're now making SF-based drives and now lowering prices to boot. Unfortunately for Intel, I'd much rather have a Crucial Marvell-based drive at a lower price than their power-hungry SF-based ones for more cash
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:22 PM   #238
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Not without competition it won't happen.

The Intel of yesteryear used to make only Microprocessors. That's it. They've since delved into SSDs, Mobos, NICs, Graphics and even designed products like the Ultrabook concept as well as that TV rumor. The next logical step for Intel, assuming they can get away with the backlash, is to wrap all of this up in plastic and put an Intel logo on both sides of the product and not just a small sticker. I guess it's just a matter of money. If the OEMs pushing their own products would potentially mean less $$ for Intel than making the products and competing with the OEMs themselves then I'm sure they'd do it. Unlike Apple, Intel controls pretty much everything from the design > fab > product minus the plastic whereas Apple does it from the plastic backwards.

I don't think it's even in the realm of possibility at the moment because things are going well for Intel with the OEMs and everyone against a monopoly would quickly back AMD or other chip manufacturers in such a move but if you look at the direction Intel's been headed the past few years you certainly can't assert with absolute certainty that it won't ever happen.
I think they will merge with Apple at some point in time, its inevitable.
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Old 05-27-2012, 05:50 PM   #239
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Btw, I just read an article on DSLReports about Verizon trying to push their DSL subscribers over to 4G LTE.
Internet access isn't very profitable. Phone service is. Cable TV is.

Plus, copper is expensive to maintain.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:20 PM   #240
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I think they will merge with Apple at some point in time, its inevitable.
Highly unlikely IMO
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Old 05-27-2012, 09:21 PM   #241
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I think they will merge with Apple at some point in time, its inevitable.
Intel is more likely to merge with HP than they are with Apple.

(think Oracle+SUN, or IBM)

Apple is more likely to merge with AMD or Nvidia just for the GPU technology (patents really) to continue fueling their insatiable desire to deliver crazy visual interfaces for the customer experience.

And AMD is more likely to merge with an ARM underling, like MIPS, to flesh out their current trajectory into the SOC design house space.

The cool thing about this industry though is just about the only thing you can count on is the ability to rule out anything you think seems obvious.

In other words, the last thing that is going to happen is an Intel/HP merger, or an Apple/AMD merger, or an AMD/MIPS merger. Just how works.
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:45 AM   #242
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Intel is more likely to merge with HP than they are with Apple.

(think Oracle+SUN, or IBM)

Apple is more likely to merge with AMD or Nvidia just for the GPU technology (patents really) to continue fueling their insatiable desire to deliver crazy visual interfaces for the customer experience.

And AMD is more likely to merge with an ARM underling, like MIPS, to flesh out their current trajectory into the SOC design house space.

The cool thing about this industry though is just about the only thing you can count on is the ability to rule out anything you think seems obvious.

In other words, the last thing that is going to happen is an Intel/HP merger, or an Apple/AMD merger, or an AMD/MIPS merger. Just how works.
Great insights IDC, personally i still believe that Intel is more interested in Apple, taking up lessons and examples in marketing/image, hw/sw integration, software sophistication etc than HPs server division, chasing IBM in big iron doesnt interest them anymore and they desperately want to change their image and create a culture like Apple did, signing up pop icons like will.i.am, hiring futurologists/sociologists etc, Intel is serious about this and with Steve Jobs out of the big picture, he was an obstacle, his manufactured image something between an "Anointed One" and "John Lenon" collided with Intels huge "WE know better" ego, will ease the way for future "considerations". All this is pure speculation ofcourse for the fun of it, but in less than 10 years the status quo will change dramatically so bold claims and speculation are not what what they used to be.
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Old 05-28-2012, 11:31 AM   #243
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Its also important to remember what company cultures fit together. For example Intel+nVidia is impossible.
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Old 05-28-2012, 11:37 AM   #244
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Companies should be split up instead of allowed to merge. Few megacorportions aren't exactly what most would call consumer friendly or competative.
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Old 05-28-2012, 11:39 AM   #245
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Sorry for the double post, wireless acting up.
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Old 05-28-2012, 12:24 PM   #246
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Total or partial mergers aren't necessary to buy patent portfolios, etc. sometimes. Also, Intel is never going to voluntarily merge with a thin-margin, struggling company if they can help it. HP is behind in many fields that matter, ranging from mobile (nice Touchpad, HP, lol) to services (trying to mimic IBM decades afterwards? good luck). Desktops and even laptops are on the decline relative to ultrathin notebooks, tablets, and smartphones; printers are a nice cash cow but not especially sexy from an innovation perspective, imho.

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Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
Intel is more likely to merge with HP than they are with Apple.

(think Oracle+SUN, or IBM)

Apple is more likely to merge with AMD or Nvidia just for the GPU technology (patents really) to continue fueling their insatiable desire to deliver crazy visual interfaces for the customer experience.

And AMD is more likely to merge with an ARM underling, like MIPS, to flesh out their current trajectory into the SOC design house space.

The cool thing about this industry though is just about the only thing you can count on is the ability to rule out anything you think seems obvious.

In other words, the last thing that is going to happen is an Intel/HP merger, or an Apple/AMD merger, or an AMD/MIPS merger. Just how works.
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Old 05-28-2012, 02:28 PM   #247
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But when 10,000 subscribers are in your area, and all on your tower, what speeds will you get?

FIOS is a lot more consistent in terms of real speed, I think.

I have FIOS, and other than the expense (it is expensive), it's pretty decent.



Edit: And as you can see from the respective screenshots, my FIOS has about 1/3 the latency of your 4G connection. FIOS (well, wired internet in general) will ALWAYS be superior for online gaming than wireless, IMHO.
And this is cable....

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Old 05-28-2012, 02:38 PM   #248
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And this is cable....

5 Ping? I hate you

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Old 05-28-2012, 03:57 PM   #249
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Fibre @ $19.99 a month
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:38 PM   #250
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5 Ping? I hate you

why hate?

That ping just means he is close to the test server.

Most of those speed test sites are useless. You are only testing your speed to the test site is doesn't equal the speed you will see over the whole internet.
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