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Old 05-17-2012, 09:51 PM   #151
Jhhnn
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Originally Posted by Lemon law View Post
While the New Israeli Government has done little to define its future direction, the debate inside Israel's best sponsor, the USA, is also ongoing.

As I think this is an interesting read regarding the possibility that Israel can infinitely prolong its military occupation of disputed territories.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israe...s-quo-1.431139

As I am glad to see I am not only only one to warn of the consequences of a one state solution documented in the article. I also note, in honest debate documented in the article, no one claimed Israel had more than a military occupation, or ownership of disputed territory
Excellent link. Thank you. As the author notes, endless occupation is Bibi's obvious aim entirely, stripped of all the posturing & lies.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:51 PM   #152
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Mere assertion & evasion.
No, it's not assertion or evasion. It's just stating the obvious, Jhhnn. Any time the Pals' recurring failure to accept a State of Palestine over the years is mentioned you dance around the issue or completely avoid it.

Quote:
My mistake- I meant to say Oslo, referencing the previously linked video.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...rds_.281993.29

"Robert Malley, special assistant to US President Bill Clinton for Arab–Israeli Affairs, has confirmed that while Barak made no formal written offer to Arafat, the US did present concepts for peace which were considered by the Israeli side yet left unanswered by Arafat "the Palestinians’ principal failing is that from the beginning of the Camp David summit onward they were unable either to say yes to the American ideas or to present a cogent and specific counterproposal of their own".[9] Consequently, there are different accounts of the proposals considered."

In the Camp David Summit that followed:

"No tenable solution was crafted which would satisfy both Israeli and Palestinian demands, even under intense US pressure. Clinton blamed Arafat for the failure of the Camp David Summit."

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I'm claiming that Israel has been having it both ways with the "two state solution" they have no intention of actually allowing. They rule the occupied territories as if they were their own, even as they deny Pals equal rights as Israeli citizens or as citizens of another country. All they want is the territory, not the people who live in it. They continue to take more of that territory in an ongoing fashion, and have rendered the notion of that two state solution nearly impossible in the process, quite by design.

Which is the basis of the Netanyahu govt's negotiating position, to stall & to obfuscate, to continuously redefine the parameters. All that stuff previous Israeli govts said? Forget it- "no preconditions". Start over again from square 1, drag out the charade for a few more generations if possible. Meanwhile, settlement will continue.
The Palestinians clearly have no intention of accepting a two-state solution anyway. It's why they have not negotiated with any honesty or real intent during any previous negotiations. Israel is tired of trying to drag that horse to water. If the Palestinians want to play that game, fine. It's no skin off of Israel's back. The Palestinians are only hurting themselves by their actions.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:07 PM   #153
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No, it's not assertion or evasion. It's just stating the obvious, Jhhnn. Any time the Pals' recurring failure to accept a State of Palestine over the years is mentioned you dance around the issue or completely avoid it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...rds_.281993.29

"Robert Malley, special assistant to US President Bill Clinton for Arab–Israeli Affairs, has confirmed that while Barak made no formal written offer to Arafat, the US did present concepts for peace which were considered by the Israeli side yet left unanswered by Arafat "the Palestinians’ principal failing is that from the beginning of the Camp David summit onward they were unable either to say yes to the American ideas or to present a cogent and specific counterproposal of their own".[9] Consequently, there are different accounts of the proposals considered."

In the Camp David Summit that followed:

"No tenable solution was crafted which would satisfy both Israeli and Palestinian demands, even under intense US pressure. Clinton blamed Arafat for the failure of the Camp David Summit."


The Palestinians clearly have no intention of accepting a two-state solution anyway. It's why they have not negotiated with any honesty or real intent during any previous negotiations. Israel is tired of trying to drag that horse to water. If the Palestinians want to play that game, fine. It's no skin off of Israel's back. The Palestinians are only hurting themselves by their actions.
None of that counters Bibi's boast that he killed the Oslo accords, which he did, or that the Israelis' current tack is to disregard all of that, anyway. They're the ones who gain from the straddle, not the pals, and they're the ones with reason to maintain it, essentially endless occupation & expropriation via settlements.

William Kristol laid it out in plain terms- the Netanyahu govt intends no withdrawal, no peace under any circumstances. It's the way they want it, the way they've wanted it from the beginning, other than the actual existence of the pals, and they'll resort to any means necessary to maintain the status quo. Well, with more settlements, obviously. Take, take, take, them blame your victims, and actually end up with people who believe you're doing something else entirely.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:10 PM   #154
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When one side never intended to follow the accords, the other side eventually says to heck with it and kills it off completely. No outrage found.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:02 PM   #155
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When one side never intended to follow the accords, the other side eventually says to heck with it and kills it off completely. No outrage found.
So, uhh, which side has the power, and which side exploits the situation to take from the other?
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:20 PM   #156
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When one side never intended to follow the accords, the other side eventually says to heck with it and kills it off completely. No outrage found.
Jhhnn apparently doesn't care about that. He'd rather ignore the complete obstinance and unreasonable dealings of the Palestinians for decades and pretend that, suddenly, the Pals are ready to bargain, only Netanyahu is standing in the way of a Palestinian State, and Israel is 100% the problem. It is attitudes like his that are the entire problem with the Israeli-Palestinian issue in the first place.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:24 PM   #157
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Jhhnn apparently doesn't care about that. He'd rather ignore the complete obstinance and unreasonable dealings of the Palestinians for decades and pretend that, suddenly, the Pals are ready to bargain, only Netanyahu is standing in the way of a Palestinian State, and Israel is 100% the problem. It is attitudes like his that are the entire problem with the Israeli-Palestinian issue in the first place.
Like I said- which side has the power, and which side exploits the situation to take from the other?
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:51 PM   #158
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Like I said- which side has the power, and which side exploits the situation to take from the other?
The answer to that is simple. The side that now has the power is the one that has endured repeated wars of aggression, suicide bombings, missile and mortar attacks against their civilian population, kidnappings, threats of annihilation, and an opposition that refuses to recognize their existance. They have endured that crap for decades yet people like you expect them to greet that kind of welcome with open arms and capitulate to unreasonable demands to even come to the bargaining table in the first place.

The Palestinians have little power and that is completely of their own doing, much of it because of their own infighting and internal power struggles, as well as their fundy religious beliefs and the hatred that they continue to pass on to their progeny through media sources. They have repeatedly thrown away their chances yet people like you expect they should be allowed a do-over, as if politics is a video game where you can simply start anew. It doesn't work that way Jhhnn.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:57 AM   #159
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It is called the King James Bible because King James authorized an English version of The Bible. It would have been called the English Bible but there were already English versions in existance.

Conspiracy not found.
Yeah and none of these kings and churches ever modified the Bible. It is the exact text written 2000 years ago, right? If you believe that I have some ocean front property in Arizona that investment rating agencies will rate a AAA for you if you'd like to invest.
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Old 05-18-2012, 07:55 AM   #160
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The answer to that is simple. The side that now has the power is the one that has endured repeated wars of aggression, suicide bombings, missile and mortar attacks against their civilian population, kidnappings, threats of annihilation, and an opposition that refuses to recognize their existance. They have endured that crap for decades yet people like you expect them to greet that kind of welcome with open arms and capitulate to unreasonable demands to even come to the bargaining table in the first place.

The Palestinians have little power and that is completely of their own doing, much of it because of their own infighting and internal power struggles, as well as their fundy religious beliefs and the hatred that they continue to pass on to their progeny through media sources. They have repeatedly thrown away their chances yet people like you expect they should be allowed a do-over, as if politics is a video game where you can simply start anew. It doesn't work that way Jhhnn.
Heh. As if the carnage weren't completely lopsided in Israel's favor, as if the number of people "kidnapped" weren't enormously greater by Israel, and as if Israel acknowledges the Pals' right to self determination or territory in the slightest. As if the Pals routinely assassinate Israeli leaders as "radicals", rather than vice-versa. As if it weren't Bibi demanding a do-over with his whole "no preconditions" spiel.

You just drag out the usual framing canards as if they were the truth, when they're just propaganda. Bibi's govt has no intention of doing anything other than continuing the occupation & taking more territory via settlements, squeezing the Pals into a smaller & smaller box. Their deeds tell us the truth, even as they speak in lies.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:11 AM   #161
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Heh. As if the carnage weren't completely lopsided in Israel's favor, as if the number of people "kidnapped" weren't enormously greater by Israel, and as if Israel acknowledges the Pals' right to self determination or territory in the slightest. As if the Pals routinely assassinate Israeli leaders as "radicals", rather than vice-versa. As if it weren't Bibi demanding a do-over with his whole "no preconditions" spiel.

You just drag out the usual framing canards as if they were the truth, when they're just propaganda. Bibi's govt has no intention of doing anything other than continuing the occupation & taking more territory via settlements, squeezing the Pals into a smaller & smaller box. Their deeds tell us the truth, even as they speak in lies.
You really cannot blame the Isrealis. The radical Muslim countries make it very clear that they should own the holy land and that everyone in the world should become a Muslim. That is their base philosophy and given what the Isreali people have already been through over the last 5000 years or so I can hardly blame them for having a fuck you attitude when dealing with the other Mid-East countries.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:13 AM   #162
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You really cannot blame the Isrealis. The radical Muslim countries make it very clear that they should own the holy land and that everyone in the world should become a Muslim. That is their base philosophy and given what the Isreali people have already been through over the last 5000 years or so I can hardly blame them for having a fuck you attitude when dealing with the other Mid-East countries.
We're talking about a population that's completely under Israeli control in the occupied territories, not other govts.
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:43 AM   #163
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Yeah and none of these kings and churches ever modified the Bible. It is the exact text written 2000 years ago, right? If you believe that I have some ocean front property in Arizona that investment rating agencies will rate a AAA for you if you'd like to invest.
Actually, the dead sea scrolls have many copies of Isaiah which are nearly identical to the modern version. The differences are in insignificant items such as "an" "the" etc. Isaiah is MUCH older than 2000 years.

I do suggest you return to school and take basic geography again, there has not been ocean front property in Arizona for a VERY long time.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:02 AM   #164
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Actually, the dead sea scrolls have many copies of Isaiah which are nearly identical to the modern version.
They also have copies of Exodus Jeremiah, and Samuel which show notable differences, as mentioned here.
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:54 PM   #165
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Awwww...it does not say what the differences are. I will have to look into it. Good stuff, and depending on what the differences are (and why), I may have to alter my position.
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:30 PM   #166
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The answer to that is simple. The side that now has the power is the one that has endured repeated wars of aggression, suicide bombings, missile and mortar attacks against their civilian population, kidnappings, threats of annihilation, and an opposition that refuses to recognize their existance. They have endured that crap for decades yet people like you expect them to greet that kind of welcome with open arms and capitulate to unreasonable demands to even come to the bargaining table in the first place.

The Palestinians have little power and that is completely of their own doing, much of it because of their own infighting and internal power struggles, as well as their fundy religious beliefs and the hatred that they continue to pass on to their progeny through media sources. They have repeatedly thrown away their chances yet people like you expect they should be allowed a do-over, as if politics is a video game where you can simply start anew. It doesn't work that way Jhhnn.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well TLC, at least you have defined your position, but your problem IMHO, is that the world simply does not work in the way YOU think it should.

Maybe two US presidents in LBJ and Nixon, not exactly our sharpest two Presidential visionaries may have bet on Israel as a stabilizing force in the mid-east, but that jumped the shark at least 20 years ago.

The collapse of the Soviet union 22 years ago was simply the USSR bowing to reality, the end of the former Apartheid government of South Africa was another example. As well as the British domination of India that ended in 1948 was similar.

Yet you TLC stubbornly maintain, that Israel, a 6 million people nation, can somehow defy the moral outrage of a 6 billion people world.

But why TLC should we debate it with you, when the judgment of history will decide the issue.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:12 PM   #167
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well TLC, at least you have defined your position, but your problem IMHO, is that the world simply does not work in the way YOU think it should.

Maybe two US presidents in LBJ and Nixon, not exactly our sharpest two Presidential visionaries may have bet on Israel as a stabilizing force in the mid-east, but that jumped the shark at least 20 years ago.

The collapse of the Soviet union 22 years ago was simply the USSR bowing to reality, the end of the former Apartheid government of South Africa was another example. As well as the British domination of India that ended in 1948 was similar.

Yet you TLC stubbornly maintain, that Israel, a 6 million people nation, can somehow defy the moral outrage of a 6 billion people world.

But why TLC should we debate it with you, when the judgment of history will decide the issue.
lol. Coming from the King of failed predictions in P&N, your little diatribe carries no weight.

Here's a little clue for you, LL. Stop trying to transpose your extreme personal distaste of Israel on the rest of the world and imagining they bear the same cross of hatefullness that you do. Stop trying to speak for them because you don't and you can't. Your personal type of outrage is confined to a very small subset of useful idiots in this world who whine on endlessly about Israel while pretending the Palestinians carry no responsibility for their condition.

Consider what I've said above, recognize that you are in a tiny minority, and then attempt to take another look at the situation. It's doubtfull you can actually do that though because of the massive reality distortion field you confine yourself within. But at least give it a shot.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:26 PM   #168
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Heh. As if the carnage weren't completely lopsided in Israel's favor, as if the number of people "kidnapped" weren't enormously greater by Israel, and as if Israel acknowledges the Pals' right to self determination or territory in the slightest. As if the Pals routinely assassinate Israeli leaders as "radicals", rather than vice-versa. As if it weren't Bibi demanding a do-over with his whole "no preconditions" spiel.

You just drag out the usual framing canards as if they were the truth, when they're just propaganda. Bibi's govt has no intention of doing anything other than continuing the occupation & taking more territory via settlements, squeezing the Pals into a smaller & smaller box. Their deeds tell us the truth, even as they speak in lies.
Keep telling yourself that it's ONLY Israel that is the problem Jhhnn. Whatever makes you feel better. Personally, those that are reasonable recognize that the problem exists on both sides and that the Pals have plenty of their own issues. It's a bit hilarious that you continuously focus only on Israel and pretend that everything is the sole fault of theirs; all while you accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you of propaganda and bias. That attitude is what has prolonged this problem as long as it has.
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