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Old 05-01-2012, 10:47 AM   #26
CycloWizard
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Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
It s extremely local.

This only effects the air for a few hundred feet in height (if that) for the local area downwind of the windmill. Thermodynamics and other factors will eventually turn things back into a state of relative equilibrium.

The only way these things would matter is if they were pushed to the extreme. Say we coat the entire pacific ocean with wind turbines. THEN we might see a significant climatological change. Otherwise you are just chucking an ice cube in the ocean.
Not necessarily. We are essentially taking energy out of the air at the wind farm and converting it to heat at the point of use.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:57 AM   #27
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The amount of energy in the atmosphere is well above what can be easily extracted.

You start taking too much out, the Earths rotation itself will start restoring the lost kinetic energy.

Again, we are talking extremes. As much as man likes to think of himself as oh so powerful, the only things we seem to be able to do that genuinely effects the world as we know it is poisoning it.

There, a little goes a LONG way. (CFC's)
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:57 PM   #28
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Hmmm Conservation of energy anyone?
Yep, but world climate is a complex system. You pull a massive amount of solar energy from the desert and move it to CA you've altered the system. You remove tidal energy and move it to NY you've altered the system. Yes, the energy in the whole system is the same, but you've changed its distribution. Would it be enough to alter climate in a noticeable way? Hard to say.
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:59 PM   #29
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The amount of energy in the atmosphere is well above what can be easily extracted.

You start taking too much out, the Earths rotation itself will start restoring the lost kinetic energy.

Again, we are talking extremes. As much as man likes to think of himself as oh so powerful, the only things we seem to be able to do that genuinely effects the world as we know it is poisoning it.

There, a little goes a LONG way. (CFC's)
So humans are too insignificant to alter the atmosphere. Unless we use oil and coal in which case WE'RE KILLING THE PLANET!!!!
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:56 PM   #30
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Yep, but world climate is a complex system. You pull a massive amount of solar energy from the desert and move it to CA you've altered the system. You remove tidal energy and move it to NY you've altered the system. Yes, the energy in the whole system is the same, but you've changed its distribution. Would it be enough to alter climate in a noticeable way? Hard to say.
After thinking about it, other than mixing the warmer and cooler air at the lowest level of the atmosphere, I doubt that a wind turbine extracts any energy as heat or it's insignificant. On the other hand I would think that virtually all of the energy is extracted as mechanical energy. Now getting back to conservation of energy, I assume that the wind is mostly derived from air currents generated by heat energy plus a little bit from the earths rotation. I've got to believe in the big picture of things that if you took all of the energy that's available in the air column, let say a 200ft diameter cylinder including the wind turbine that extends to the stratophere , that the wind turbine is still extracting an infinitesimal amount of energy from that air column.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:04 PM   #31
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So humans are too insignificant to alter the atmosphere. Unless we use oil and coal in which case WE'RE KILLING THE PLANET!!!!
Actually, yes.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:12 PM   #32
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I guess this proves the climate change deniers right, and man-made global warming can't possibly exist . . . .oh, wait.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:43 PM   #33
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Actually, yes.
Religious zealots are funny. Your reasoning changes drastically depending on what point you're trying to prove.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:49 PM   #34
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This news is extremely questionable to me. For reasons I imagine already mentioned in this thread.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:07 PM   #35
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Religious zealots are funny. Your reasoning changes drastically depending on what point you're trying to prove.
Do you have zero common sense?

We've increased CO2 in the atmosphere by 50% by burning fossil fuels. We've destroyed a huge portion of the world's forests. We've caused many species to go extinct. We've significantly altered marine ecosystems and continue to do so, to the point that every few years we have to change the species of fish that we buy in grocery stores. Oh and BTW, pregnant women can no longer eat fish because we've made them toxic. It's not up for debate whether we've had a huge impact on the earth.

Extracting energy from the wind doesn't have any significant impact on global climate. If you think it does, it's because you don't grasp the quantities of energy involved.


This is a troll article to begin with. Mixing air is NOT global warming. Do the fans in your house reduce the temperature? I'm surprised Forbes would publish garbage like this.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:52 PM   #36
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TANSTAAFL

You can't remove energy from a system and not expect a change. The extent of the change in weather patterns and ultimately climate may be huge or minute, but there will be a change. Chaos theory is... Unpredictable.
Finally, someone who gets it. Chaos Theory study FTW.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:58 PM   #37
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Do you have zero common sense?

We've increased CO2 in the atmosphere by 50% by burning fossil fuels. We've destroyed a huge portion of the world's forests. We've caused many species to go extinct. We've significantly altered marine ecosystems and continue to do so, to the point that every few years we have to change the species of fish that we buy in grocery stores. Oh and BTW, pregnant women can no longer eat fish because we've made them toxic. It's not up for debate whether we've had a huge impact on the earth.

Extracting energy from the wind doesn't have any significant impact on global climate. If you think it does, it's because you don't grasp the quantities of energy involved.


This is a troll article to begin with. Mixing air is NOT global warming. Do the fans in your house reduce the temperature? I'm surprised Forbes would publish garbage like this.
All I want is for you personally to have to pay the cost of electricity we get from wind power and to have to depend solely on it to provide the energy needs of your life.

For myself I'll stick with hydro and gas/coal.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:50 AM   #38
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Religious zealots are funny. Your reasoning changes drastically depending on what point you're trying to prove.
Nope.

Scientists know the difference between kinetic energy, thermodynamics, and biochemical interactions.

Try again.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:52 AM   #39
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All I want is for you personally to have to pay the cost of electricity we get from wind power and to have to depend solely on it to provide the energy needs of your life.

For myself I'll stick with hydro and gas/coal.
IFF you then take and keep all the waste products that are produced by this in and around your person and property.

If what you desire effects others adversely, they have the right to ask for regulations.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:09 AM   #40
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IFF you then take and keep all the waste products that are produced by this in and around your person and property.

If what you desire effects others adversely, they have the right to ask for regulations.
I have no problem with that at all. As long as they can prove it.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:16 AM   #41
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Maybe we should limit the amount of CO liberals can exhale....you know, to save the planet. The planet will be better off in many ways if we do this.

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Old 05-02-2012, 09:20 AM   #42
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The air temperature is always colder, the higher you go away from the ground. The earth retains heat from the day of warming from the sun and releases that at night. The claim this guy is making goes against simple science.
I don't like to say that most people are high school drop outs since that's clearly not true. What is most likely true that is a large percentage of people are on PCP when doing their work.

For example, the article is about mixing hot air with cold air and getting an average between the two. Simple math would say that temperatures like 10 on the ground and 20 in the air have the same average as having 15 on the ground and 15 in the air. After smoking PCP, you'll clearly see that the average changes from 15 to 90. Therefore the windmills and PCP caused global warming.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:21 AM   #43
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All I want is for you personally to have to pay the cost of electricity we get from wind power and to have to depend solely on it to provide the energy needs of your life.

For myself I'll stick with hydro and gas/coal.
That's a very VERY dumb argument.

The true costs of using fossil fuels is extremely high and there are a massive amount of externalities associated with fossil fuels. In fact, if externalities are included with the cost of using coal, it quickly would become too expensive to justify the cost of using it.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:39 AM   #44
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That's a very VERY dumb argument.

The true costs of using fossil fuels is extremely high and there are a massive amount of externalities associated with fossil fuels. In fact, if externalities are included with the cost of using coal, it quickly would become too expensive to justify the cost of using it.
of course it is, and hydro too.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:14 AM   #45
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The basic effect is that given that the ground at night is generally cooler than the atmosphere,
Wrong - The ground releases heat energy captured during daylight hours.

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Turning blades of the turbines mix up this air, cool with warmer, and thus lower the temperature of the higher up air.
Wrong. those are turbines, not propellers.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:12 PM   #46
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I have no problem with that at all. As long as they can prove it.
They can, and they have.

By "it" you mean Global Warming (or climate change) and the majority of scientists agree that there has been change recently. That change has paced our own industrial development and production of waste material.

Somehow ignoring the previous examples of CFC, TFC's and other chemicals and their effect on the environment and still shouting "prove it" when your life or livelyhood would NOT be greatly effected (waah, you have to spend more for luxury) is a bit duplicitous.

The key here is simple. You have every right to question things, but when that questioning turns to obfuscation rather than a true attempt at enlightenment, then you are simply being an impediment and not a solution.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:30 PM   #47
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They can, and they have.

By "it" you mean Global Warming (or climate change) and the majority of scientists agree that there has been change recently. That change has paced our own industrial development and production of waste material.

Somehow ignoring the previous examples of CFC, TFC's and other chemicals and their effect on the environment and still shouting "prove it" when your life or livelyhood would NOT be greatly effected (waah, you have to spend more for luxury) is a bit duplicitous.

The key here is simple. You have every right to question things, but when that questioning turns to obfuscation rather than a true attempt at enlightenment, then you are simply being an impediment and not a solution.
No they haven't in terms of preventable catastrophic, but knock yourself out. Enlightenment my ass. If you can prove it, then do it. BTW if you want a decent response to the OP you can try this article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...m_business_pop

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