The official iPad thread - Page 15

MrX8503 · 03-27-2012, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karmypolitics

So, reasons for just getting an iPad 2 instead.

1. Refurb it costs $150 less, which is significant

2. The screen is truly cutting edge and so they probably haven't quite perfected its manufacture.

3. lack of retina apps

4. Most stuff actually looks significantly worse on the new screen because of the high resolution.

A lot of apps are retina now. The entire web is also retina.

runawayprisoner · 03-27-2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrX8503

A lot of apps are retina now. The entire web is also retina.

Only about less than 100 apps have been updated to support the Retina Display on the new iPad. That's less than 0.1% of the App Store, unless you count iPhone Retina apps, but those look horrible on the new iPad. And not all "updated" apps are properly updated. Take magazines, for instance. By "updated", they mean they are just scaling the fonts properly. Their interface graphics and photo are still formatted for 1024 x 768.

The entire web is definitely NOT Retina where graphics are concerned. Forums are close to Retina, but as soon as you see a logo or a photo of something, it'll dawn pretty soon that the web has a long way to go.

That and the fact that font rendering technique has changed with the iPad 3 is a cause for concern. The iPhone Retina display didn't change font rendering technique, so fonts looked the same size.

On the other hand, fonts on the iPad 3 seem to be rendered at a slightly smaller size. This is very apparent if you were to put both the iPad 2 and iPad 3 together. The iPad 2 has bolder fonts, with thicker lines, and it is generally easier to see whereas on the iPad 3, despite the higher resolution screen, lines are thinner, texts are thinner, and it's really hard to read from a distance.

The iPhone has the boldest font out of the 3, and I generally prefer bolder fonts over thinner ones. The iPad 3 seems like ClearType on steroid where fonts are concerned.

BD2003 · 03-27-2012, 04:50 PM

Most of the magazines I read on newsstand have been updated. The vast majority of non-game apps I use have already been updated, or are text driven and it doesn't need updating.

MrX8503 · 03-27-2012, 05:18 PM

Alot of those "100" apps are the most popular ones. Retina support is much quicker this time around and I get retina updates daily. The web is mostly retina because text is scalable. Graphics on the other hand is not going to change until we get retina desktops and even then it'll take a very long time. Did you forget how long the web was stuck in 800x600?

The ipad3 does some nice scaling too. iPhone4 and ipad2 apps look better on the iPad 3 than the ipad2.

runawayprisoner · 03-27-2012, 06:45 PM

Well, I guess if you are mostly concerned about texts, then it works, yeah. But there's still the fact that font rendering on the iPad 3 just feels... different. I am actually thinking about submitting the "difference" as a bug to Apple so that they can look into it.

Overall, I guess I'm just somewhat perplexed by the lack of contents that can truly take advantage of the screen, and from my own standards, I guess I want more than just sharper texts, given what I get with the iPhone.

Maybe it'll be different when the iPad 2013 comes out. One year should be enough for most contents to scale themselves to Retina display scale.

BD2003 · 03-27-2012, 06:59 PM

Keep in mind the iPhone technically still has a higher dpi. That might account for any diff in text.

Both look great to me.

runawayprisoner · 03-27-2012, 07:10 PM

No, it's not the iPhone. Compare the iPad 3 to the iPad 2 and you'll see. In general, texts on the iPad 3 are thinner than the iPad 2. It might be that the iPad 2 has to keep texts thick to "mask" the lower DPI, but the thinner texts on the iPad 3 really bother me.

And comparing the iPad to the iPhone is an even bigger difference. Texts on iPhone are generally bolder regardless of which iPad it is.

MrX8503 · 03-27-2012, 07:34 PM

Something else to remember is that any site worth their salt uses CSS as much as they can to draw graphics. CSS is scalable which looks good on the retina screen too.

runawayprisoner · 03-27-2012, 07:42 PM

So about 99.99% of sites aren't worth their salt. Even Anandtech.

Scaling or not, the graphics just look bad on the iPad 3, or at least not as sharp as the texts. It's not bad in portrait, but surely, you've seen how it is in landscape.

And here's a post detailing why just good CSS alone may not work:
http://www.quora.com/CSS3/What-is-th...etina-graphics

And even Apple themselves aren't getting away that easily:
http://blog.cloudfour.com/how-apple-...-to-new-ipads/

MrX8503 · 03-27-2012, 08:45 PM

I think you misunderstood me.

I'm talking about the layout being drawn by CSS3. Anandtechs layout is drawn by CSS. The blog you posted is drawn by CSS3, it's curves, boxes, gradients, and buttons. All of these elements along with text are scalable. This forum looks awesome on my iPad 3, only the banner ads have a quality loss.

runawayprisoner · 03-27-2012, 08:56 PM

You are talking about vector graphics then. But certain things can't be drawn in vectors, so at least you still need high-res photos.

And most websites aren't in CSS3 either, so the web simply isn't ready for this.

BD2003 · 03-27-2012, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

You are talking about vector graphics then. But certain things can't be drawn in vectors, so at least you still need high-res photos.

And most websites aren't in CSS3 either, so the web simply isn't ready for this.

Regardless of whether or not its utilizing every pixel - the web still looks fantastic on it. The most important part IMO is that the text is rendered at full resolution. Beyond that, its just splitting hairs.

MrX8503 · 03-27-2012, 10:41 PM

Most relevant websites are using css3 and degrade gracefully. I would say at least 50% of a site's layout can be drawn out by code. There's also tiling, which takes care of any resolution. You can test websites out on the iPad 3 and you'll see most elements are scaling very nicely.

amdhunter · 03-27-2012, 11:04 PM

I am late to the thread because I was put on a months leave, but I picked up two on launch day.

Kept one, put Applecare+ and ended up trading the other one for a 2500k/cheap gigabyte mobo + case + $150 cash.

That aside, I returned mine due to a single green stuck pixel about two days later, and now have a flawless display.

I am thoroughly bored with it. Despite everyone saying how good the screen is, I am like meh. It's nice, but not as nice as a lot of websites say it is. The amount of retina apps is increasing by the day, but I don't really care.

Hopefully iOS 6 will bring something new to the table. This screen/gpu seems like a huge waste running the way it is now.

runawayprisoner · 03-27-2012, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrX8503

Most relevant websites are using css3 and degrade gracefully. I would say at least 50% of a site's layout can be drawn out by code. There's also tiling, which takes care of any resolution. You can test websites out on the iPad 3 and you'll see most elements are scaling very nicely.

I already had an iPad 3. It's not like I'm talking out against something I don't have, and this is not even a problem with the iPad 3. It's a problem with the web in general, as well as other contents.

And no, they don't scale well. Especially not these forums. Specifically, the "Post Reply", "Edit", and "Quote" button that I'm looking at right now don't scale at all on the iPad 3, and they all look extremely pixelated and blurry compared to the texts.

A lot of websites are like that as well. It's a common technique to avoid rendering issues. Not everything is drawn on CSS because not all browsers handle CSS the same way, and not all CSS3 elements render properly in most browsers.

Again, this is not a negative for the iPad 3. It's a problem for web developers and app developers.

And trust me, I'm not the only one that feels this.

micrometers · 03-28-2012, 01:00 AM

I'd think that apple would have found a way to have non-optimized apps look better on the screen. I mean, 4 pixels on the new iPad = 1 pixel on the old iPad, which was the entire point.

MrX8503 · 03-28-2012, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

I already had an iPad 3. It's not like I'm talking out against something I don't have, and this is not even a problem with the iPad 3. It's a problem with the web in general, as well as other contents.

And no, they don't scale well. Especially not these forums. Specifically, the "Post Reply", "Edit", and "Quote" button that I'm looking at right now don't scale at all on the iPad 3, and they all look extremely pixelated and blurry compared to the texts.

A lot of websites are like that as well. It's a common technique to avoid rendering issues. Not everything is drawn on CSS because not all browsers handle CSS the same way, and not all CSS3 elements render properly in most browsers.

Again, this is not a negative for the iPad 3. It's a problem for web developers and app developers.

And trust me, I'm not the only one that feels this.

Too bad I never said any of those things. I never said images scale well. Also you'd never know a CSS element property was working as intended as web sites are designed to offer legacy support and degrade gracefully.

kazaam · 03-29-2012, 12:07 AM

Sent mine back today.

Keeping my moms though. Can anyone suggest a case?

alfa147x · 03-29-2012, 01:32 AM

Dodocase.

runawayprisoner · 03-29-2012, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrX8503

Too bad I never said any of those things. I never said images scale well. Also you'd never know a CSS element property was working as intended as web sites are designed to offer legacy support and degrade gracefully.

It's not a matter of who said what. It's a fact that most websites (with photos and graphics, at least) aren't ready for the Retina display.

And no, websites aren't made to offer legacy support. Some websites can be designed to support a wider range of browsers, but some simply don't. It's a 50/50 game. Thanksfully, Safari on iPad does support most sites properly, but the same thing can be said about Safari on iPhone.

In any case, again, it's not just me who's "seeing" this. You can browse around MacRumors and read the same kind of response.

MrX8503 · 03-29-2012, 10:35 AM

Well If I never said it, I'm not sure why you brought it up as a disagreement. Images don't scale well, I never said that it did. I was directly referring to layout design via CSS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

It's not a matter of who said what. It's a fact that most websites (with photos and graphics, at least) aren't ready for the Retina display.

And no, websites aren't made to offer legacy support. Some websites can be designed to support a wider range of browsers, but some simply don't. It's a 50/50 game. Thanksfully, Safari on iPad does support most sites properly, but the same thing can be said about Safari on iPhone.

In any case, again, it's not just me who's "seeing" this. You can browse around MacRumors and read the same kind of response.

Yes they are. Ever heard of HTML5 Boilerplate, Modernizer, HTML5 Shiv, or Google Chrome frame? Aside from those tools, Web designers and developers use their own methods and have been offering legacy support for years. Why else do you think we still code for IE6?

With mobile browsers, this is even less of an issue. CSS is quite old and any and all CSS is going to be rendered fully on the iPad 3.

runawayprisoner · 03-29-2012, 11:07 AM

You are basically saying that all websites are made the same way and all web developers are using said tool, which I sincerely disagree with because I do work with web developers, and not a lot of those guys use the mentioned tools. In fact, I have only heard of Modernizer once... in the past 6 months. The rest of the other tools... this is the first time I have heard of them. And I'm in Sillicon Valley of all places (Google's home turf if you will). So no, legacy support isn't something that happens with all websites, or in fact, I don't even think it happens with the majority of websites.

And I never said you mentioned image scaling. I am simply saying that it's an issue on the iPad 3. "Issue" not as in it's a "bug" but as in the screen is too detailed, and it shows flaws more easily than other screens.

Whether the iPad 3 can do CSS or not is irrelevant because anything that isn't drawn in vector still looks bad.

MrX8503 · 03-29-2012, 01:19 PM

If they're not using those tools then they're behind the curve or they use some other method(s) to offer legacy support. No developer in their right mind would create a website that only works on the newest browser. And no, I'm not saying all websites are made the same way, I'm saying that all websites are created to offer the best support for the browsers with the largest marketshare.

CSS has been around for years and a good amount of webpages are drawn that way, so I would say most of the web supports retina rather than not. There's a lot more CSS than fixed images to a web site layout.

Red Storm · 03-29-2012, 02:20 PM

Odd, when I tried out the iPad 3 I didn't notice websites looking bad at all...

Are there comparison shots?

BD2003 · 03-29-2012, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Storm

Odd, when I tried out the iPad 3 I didn't notice websites looking bad at all...

Are there comparison shots?

I wouldn't take anyone seriously that says websites look bad on the iPad 3. Whether or not it takes 100% full advantage of every pixel is a different story, but it's splitting the difference between really good and incredible.