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Old 02-20-2012, 12:38 PM   #1
SoiledBottom
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Default Chemtrails real or fake

Hi all

New to the forum but have read it for a few years.

Although probly not highly technical or maybe it is...I don't know.

I live in North Carolina and been seeing very long (Chemtrails) or Contrails in my skys daily....not just a few but many.

They stay in the sky for hrs and spread out.

I just dont remember seeing contrails doing this when I looked skyward in the 70's and 80's.

I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorie kind of guy but I do know there are alot of smart people that post here.

So are Chemtrails real and if yes what are they spraying and why.

If they are just contrails shouldn't they just dissipate more quickly ?

Thanks for your responces in advance

Soiled
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:10 PM   #2
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If they are just contrails shouldn't they just dissipate more quickly ?
that highly depends on wind speeds and atmospheric conditions. but you're most likely just seeing typical contrails.
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:54 PM   #3
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Someone asked about me once about chem trails... I simply replied that jet fuel is the only material that keeps planes in the air. It is toxic, but people want to fly cheap and often...
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:06 PM   #4
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I just dont remember seeing contrails doing this when I looked skyward in the 70's and 80's.
i forgot to address this point. though i can't be 100% certain, this phenomenon is most likely due to the fact that there is far more air traffic in the sky nowadays than there ever was back in the 70's and 80's...
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:33 PM   #5
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A common theory among progressives, Marxists, hippies, and generally unhappy people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtra...spiracy_theory
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:44 PM   #6
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From a purely economical perspective, airlines want to burn fuel with as much efficiency as they can. Therefore, you can be very certain that high conversion is occurring in these engines and that virtually all of the chemical output will be H20 and CO2. I'm a chemical engineer by training, but this argument is simple enough that it should address the concerns of all but the most lunatic fringe - a group I doubt will be swayed by any degree of technical discussion.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:56 PM   #7
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Therefore, you can be very certain that high conversion is occurring in these engines and that virtually all of the chemical output will be H20 and CO2. I'm a chemical engineer by training,
Ok, no problem. High efficiency. Got it.

Er, bloody big white fluffy things that don't dissipate because they're not water? What are they?

I don't live near a chemtrail infested sky. I'm not sure what they are. A US fighter pilot or two seem to be happy to comment on the unusual trails coming off the back of a boeing something or other passenger jet. r.e. YouTube for hard scientific evidence!! lol

However, in the face of such public fervency on the topic, why not give it a decent publicity spin. Debunk the b.s. Nope. No cigar.

The research on chem-trail-type-compounds is quite extensive and weather engineers (yes, a real job - we've come a long way from the local shaman and his raindance) would be itching to try some of them.

Say the object was to create a lower average temperature (yearlong), by 2 degrees celcius or something. Chem trails might make sense.....

If an ice-skate-rink-maintenance man can build a backyard ice-rink and use white kitchen paper towel as an intermediate layer because it reflects light and heat making the ice last longer, the same principle in the sky would probably work.

Chemtrails are credible. The alternative (kero by products) does NOT account for the types of videos that bozo's with handycams have been able to produce showing low altitude, slow dispersing, vapourous stuff, covering the afternoon sky.......

So what gives?
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:05 PM   #8
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These chemicals might leave a trail.

I have heard this theory a few times, and usually it is mind control or some other weird concoction, also have had HAARP thrown in the mix.

While I am an open minded person overall, I am skeptical of many conspiracy theories because there is little practical reason to what is theorized. Not implying that theories have to be practical, but I would assume if "they" could control peoples minds, "they" would use it more efficiently to achieve some end goal. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to dope the water supply than to waste fuel flying the chemicals into the air?(and then it rabbit holes from there)

Anyhow, I too have observed these persistent contrails, and definitely more planes than when I was younger. I don't believe I have ever seen any cloud seeding, though I hear it is done near Colorado.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:15 AM   #9
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Ok, no problem. High efficiency. Got it.

Er, bloody big white fluffy things that don't dissipate because they're not water? What are they?
You missed the H2O part. Water is a byproduct of combustion. Just like you will see the vapor off the tailpipe of a car when it's cold, the same thing happens behind a plane.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by xboa721 View Post

Chemtrails are credible. The alternative (kero by products) does NOT account for the types of videos that bozo's with handycams have been able to produce showing low altitude, slow dispersing, vapourous stuff, covering the afternoon sky.......

So what gives?
I've seen at least a dozen videos that the chemtrail fanatics consider 100% positive proof of the existence of chemtrails, and none of them are very credible at all. People see a "normal" contrail A and a "chemtrail" B and because they don't look or act the same, they jump to the conclusion that it is because A and B are not the same, when the fact is that they're completely ignoring variables C (air temp), D (air density), E (moisture content), F (engine throttle position), G (altitude), etc, etc, etc, all of which can have an enormous impact on the appearance and longevity of a normally generated contrail.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:31 AM   #11
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...big white fluffy things that don't dissipate... What are they?
Clouds? Yes, I've seen them last all day!

Not too surprising then that the "clouds" of water vapor produced by the combustion of jet fuel might condense into trails of condensed water vapor (i.e. clouds) that don't dissipate for hours.

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because they're not water?
How exactly have you reached this conclusion?
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:37 AM   #12
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Clouds? Yes, I've seen them last all day!

Not too surprising then that the "clouds" of water vapor produced by the combustion of jet fuel might condense into trails of condensed water vapor (i.e. clouds) that don't dissipate for hours.
Ok, I could pretend I meant that or just laugh at my own obvious mistake.

However, the thing I was referring to was a distinct memory I have of watching probably more than a dozen - some hundred or so videos on these chemtrails things.

I accept I have too much time for fun indulgences.

Having worked closely with regulating temperature and humidity in a room I have some understanding of the mechanisms of both and undoubtedly contrails can last a sustained period of time.

That's not what I'm on about at all. The wackpots, crackheads and mushroom eaters can go ride a fluffy white one!

To my mind, educated an' all that it is, even with a piece of paper or three around here somewhere that proclaim that it works in pretty good fashion, some of these videos suggested - perhaps gave an inkling - to me, just lil' ol' me...there might be something other than er, fluffy white ones up there!

Would a little more transparency from the weather engineers help the situation? When we've got little crop-duster planes spreading samples to see how various vaporous substances, ionised particles, silver ions or whatever take their time to float back to earth it would be a logical practical extension to raise the bar a little and piggy back a commercial jet.

Now, I'm not in for the conspiracy theory's - load of crap as far as I'm concerned - however real time modification of weather patters IS a current objective of several interest groups yet for various reasons they are less than forthcoming about CURRENT endeavors.

Some good air floaty mixtures - like aluminium derivatives - could have potential health effects. No PR consultant is going to recommend advertising the fact.

I'm only an observer in this but it seems to me a) the concept of chem trails is credible b) *some* current R&D in weather engineering is aimed at reducing solar energy received at the earth's surface c) we have current systems for creating rain under certain conditions (man made induced rain that is) d) fluffy white things in the sky are usually clouds and behave as such and e) contrails are pretty normal, mostly water vapour that usually dissipate simply because they don't have the volume/density required to form a cloud.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by xboa721 View Post
Ok, no problem. High efficiency. Got it.

Er, bloody big white fluffy things that don't dissipate because they're not water? What are they?

I don't live near a chemtrail infested sky. I'm not sure what they are. A US fighter pilot or two seem to be happy to comment on the unusual trails coming off the back of a boeing something or other passenger jet. r.e. YouTube for hard scientific evidence!! lol

However, in the face of such public fervency on the topic, why not give it a decent publicity spin. Debunk the b.s. Nope. No cigar.

The research on chem-trail-type-compounds is quite extensive and weather engineers (yes, a real job - we've come a long way from the local shaman and his raindance) would be itching to try some of them.

Say the object was to create a lower average temperature (yearlong), by 2 degrees celcius or something. Chem trails might make sense.....

If an ice-skate-rink-maintenance man can build a backyard ice-rink and use white kitchen paper towel as an intermediate layer because it reflects light and heat making the ice last longer, the same principle in the sky would probably work.

Chemtrails are credible. The alternative (kero by products) does NOT account for the types of videos that bozo's with handycams have been able to produce showing low altitude, slow dispersing, vapourous stuff, covering the afternoon sky.......

So what gives?
The reason no one bothers to debunk your argument is because it doesn't make sense on any level to begin with. Dissipation of combustion byproducts depends on many factors including, but not limited to, temperature, pressure, windspeed, altitude, and initial concentration. I have never seen a permanent "chemtrail", so it's nonsense to say that they don't dissipate. They simply don't dissipate at the rate you would naively expect.

Of the following two options, which is more likely:
1. American Airlines shoots some unknown chemical out the back of a plane as it flies around. Not only that, but they pay to replenish those chemicals on a regular basis and pay increased fuel costs to lift it all the way up into the atmosphere! Further, whatever chemicals they are spraying are magical in that they disobey the laws of mass transfer, whereas obviously normal jet exhaust would obey those laws. or
2. Combustion exhaust doesn't dissipate in exactly the way you would naively expect.

Using aerosols to manipulate weather is a fool's errand. Even the short-term effects of aerosols in the upper atmosphere are not well understood, and the long-term has rarely been considered. Stick to trying to predict the weather rather than manipulate it - that's obviously well out of your depth.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:05 AM   #14
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Using aerosols to manipulate weather is a fool's errand. Even the short-term effects of aerosols in the upper atmosphere are not well understood, and the long-term has rarely been considered. Stick to trying to predict the weather rather than manipulate it - that's obviously well out of your depth.
You might want to remind the CWCB about that, because they are wasting $274,000 to inject silver iodide particles into the atmosphere to get more snow around ski areas and water suppliers. LOL at the idea of a short-sighted government agency focused on one area (water supply/tourism) to care about the effects of it's actions in another field (atmospheric/health). Don't get me wrong, I know science has a lot more accountability these days, but I have heard a lot of "oops, actually..." which has left me a bit cynical about government oversight.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:57 AM   #15
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The reason no one bothers to debunk your argument is because it doesn't make sense on any level to begin with. Dissipation of combustion byproducts depends on many factors including, but not limited to, temperature, pressure, windspeed, altitude, and initial concentration. I have never seen a permanent "chemtrail", so it's nonsense to say that they don't dissipate. They simply don't dissipate at the rate you would naively expect.

Of the following two options, which is more likely:
1. American Airlines shoots some unknown chemical out the back of a plane as it flies around. Not only that, but they pay to replenish those chemicals on a regular basis and pay increased fuel costs to lift it all the way up into the atmosphere! Further, whatever chemicals they are spraying are magical in that they disobey the laws of mass transfer, whereas obviously normal jet exhaust would obey those laws. or
2. Combustion exhaust doesn't dissipate in exactly the way you would naively expect.

Using aerosols to manipulate weather is a fool's errand. Even the short-term effects of aerosols in the upper atmosphere are not well understood, and the long-term has rarely been considered. Stick to trying to predict the weather rather than manipulate it - that's obviously well out of your depth.
This. Can't believe this topic passes for "highly technical" these days
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:24 PM   #16
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The reason no one bothers to debunk your argument is because it doesn't make sense on any level to begin with. Dissipation of combustion byproducts depends on many factors including, but not limited to, temperature, pressure, windspeed, altitude, and initial concentration. I have never seen a permanent "chemtrail", so it's nonsense to say that they don't dissipate. They simply don't dissipate at the rate you would naively expect.

Of the following two options, which is more likely:
1. American Airlines shoots some unknown chemical out the back of a plane as it flies around. Not only that, but they pay to replenish those chemicals on a regular basis and pay increased fuel costs to lift it all the way up into the atmosphere! Further, whatever chemicals they are spraying are magical in that they disobey the laws of mass transfer, whereas obviously normal jet exhaust would obey those laws. or
2. Combustion exhaust doesn't dissipate in exactly the way you would naively expect.

Using aerosols to manipulate weather is a fool's errand. Even the short-term effects of aerosols in the upper atmosphere are not well understood, and the long-term has rarely been considered. Stick to trying to predict the weather rather than manipulate it - that's obviously well out of your depth.
Add to this, the planes are inspected regularly by engineers, refueling guys, baggage handlers etc. Thousands of different people. None of them are reporting the strange 1,000 liter tank (where would it fit anyway?) with exit nozzles that's refilled by guys wearing black suits at every airport.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:36 PM   #17
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You might want to remind the CWCB about that, because they are wasting $274,000 to inject silver iodide particles into the atmosphere to get more snow around ski areas and water suppliers. LOL at the idea of a short-sighted government agency focused on one area (water supply/tourism) to care about the effects of it's actions in another field (atmospheric/health). Don't get me wrong, I know science has a lot more accountability these days, but I have heard a lot of "oops, actually..." which has left me a bit cynical about government oversight.
Oh I'm well aware that these idiots are doing stuff. I got my PhD from the department with the top aerosol scientists in the world (not my area, so that doesn't reflect well on me in any way) and some of these guys would come give a seminar. Our faculty would laugh them out of the building. Our government wants control of everything - including the weather - and they will throw money at any crazy idea that they perceive as giving them more control. It's depressing as hell.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:48 PM   #18
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Some people really are paranoid... The higher the efficiency, the better. But as i wrote before, jet fuel is jet fuel. And people want to fly as often en as cheap as possible. If you want to clean up the environment, take the bicycle when you only need to go for a few tens of miles. But i would not be surprised to find out that most conspiracy people are glued to the seat of the car.
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:41 PM   #19
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Let me gloss over the backhanded remarks.

Try and get this point:

There's a little boy who lives in a little house with a little porch porch area in a very cold country. The ice man comes to make the little boy a skate rink. In between layers of cold water, that freezes in about 20 minutes, he makes a layer of kitchen paper towel. Ok kids, try this one at home: wet a piece of kitchen paper towel. What happens? That's right, it goes damn near see through. Right? Ok. Same stuff here. But the ice man says it's important. He says it will make the ice rink last a LOT longer. He's talking about avoiding a loss of maybe up to 2 degrees and that is enough to keep the little boy going round in circles on his skates. (ok, it's minus15degC and this is a true story, if you wondered)

Ok, quick review: Sun spits out lots of heat (uv radiation amongst others). Fat lazy bastard sitting on beach applies sunscreen. Aforementioned F.L.B. after several hours is still Fat and Lazy but the Bastard ain't burnt! Why not?

Sunscreen. (just like) 2 degrees.. get it?

How about a fluffy white, man-made induced, opaque layer of something that floats in the sky long enough to act like sunscreen? Would that be of benefit? Could that be of benefit? I'm convinced though that some pricks that oughta have been burnt have missed the point.

Let's spin it around the other way. What if we looked at this from another viewpoint.

What if the American people (those most affected by delusional paranoid affective disorders, disproportionally so in comparison to the rest of the world Ref: my unmitigated attempt to throw distracting arguments around a sensible point some may consider worthy of mention) actually realised they'd come up with a unique, cost effective method for spraying chemicals in the air that are highly effective at reflecting up to 20% (actual figure quoted for some researched compositions) of the sunlight for a period of 4 hours with a half hour lead time to get them in place.

Hmm.... just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching you.

So, while you might argue that messing with the weather is not recommended - er, this has been going on quite a while now - we've had a hundred years or so to ramp up the CO2 levels, not to mention anything more technical like methane, for example.

And we know how much sense it makes to treat a 'mental patient' with a causative - no wait that's the effective - chemical imbalance, with more chemicals to even things out - it makes perfect illogical sense to treat the sky for one chemical imbalance problem with another chemical. Right?

The American Goverment recommends this type of treatment for it's citizens - r.e. the PMA. It stands to reason that those same people authorising these types of treatments would also seek to modify the air in the sky. Does it not?

Note: if you have to mention the C word in your reply go right ahead, just don't call me a conspira..... thingo.

So, when you watched the weather engineering symposium, what conclusions did you draw personally on your feelings towards the potential for using what some people are afraid are already being used - re chemtrails saga - and how do you feel about the fact that in a short space of time it appears apparent that an American government agency is the one responsible for spraying Aluminium something or other into the sky for the specific purpose of reflecting sunlight to vary local surface temperatures?

Or is that just bunk?
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:46 PM   #20
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Here's a link, just for starters. Although it isn't the link I was talking about in the previous post.....

http://ttv.mit.edu/collections/esi/v...e-consequences
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:32 AM   #21
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Hi all

New to the forum but have read it for a few years.

Although probly not highly technical or maybe it is...I don't know.

I live in North Carolina and been seeing very long (Chemtrails) or Contrails in my skys daily....not just a few but many.

They stay in the sky for hrs and spread out.

I just dont remember seeing contrails doing this when I looked skyward in the 70's and 80's.

I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorie kind of guy but I do know there are alot of smart people that post here.

So are Chemtrails real and if yes what are they spraying and why.

If they are just contrails shouldn't they just dissipate more quickly ?

Thanks for your responces in advance

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Old 02-22-2012, 07:12 AM   #22
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Oh I'm well aware that these idiots are doing stuff. I got my PhD from the department with the top aerosol scientists in the world (not my area, so that doesn't reflect well on me in any way) and some of these guys would come give a seminar. Our faculty would laugh them out of the building. Our government wants control of everything - including the weather - and they will throw money at any crazy idea that they perceive as giving them more control. It's depressing as hell.
While I agree that attempting to control the weather is certainly foolish, there might have been a boost in confidence after they realized how easy it is to control 300+ million people, and are expanding the formula globally. I don't think the weather is as easily swayed as mob mentality, though.

It looks like this thread is going to spiral, so yeah, thousands of years of "rulers" with psychological disorders, and here we are. The more change the more it's all the same.
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:56 PM   #23
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well they did it with silver oxide in vietnam didnt they?... our military doesnt even argue that. part of the reason we lost they think, because we made it so wet that we couldnt even travel the terrain (while the local people were used to wet weather and it didnt slow them down that much)

so while i dont think chemtrails, if they are real over american soil, are for mind control... i can absolutely believe they are still trying to perfect weather control. think about it, if our government controls the weather then we have a weapon that even better then nukes (nobody has to know were even waging a war!)
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:27 PM   #24
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I spent 6 months of my life putting up weather balloons on a tiny island near a mid-size international airport, and looking up at the sky and making observations about clouds.

Every day there were particularly long-lasting contrails in the air was also a day when the layers of atmosphere where they formed were at 100% relative humidity.

It's just water.

Water vapor is transparent. In order to form clouds, you need humidity and something to act as condensation points. (Pure water vapor won't turn into a cloud on it's own -- it always condenses on a surface, such as on a window, on a dust particle, or on the surface of a pre-existing cloud droplet.) Given good conditions, the upper layers of the troposphere are often supersaturated with water, but air up there is clean enough that there isn't anything for the droplets to condense around, so clouds can't form and the water remains in vapor phase. Most natural clouds in the upper troposphere are actually transported up there by clouds below rising from convection.

Add an airplane -- it leaves behind a lot of microscopic dust, and it also dumps about a ton of water behind it for every half a ton of fuel it uses. The initial contrails form from the exhaust water to the condensation centers provided by the impurities in the engine exhaust. But after that, the cloud itself provides more surface for additional water to condense. Sometimes, on clear days you could see a contrail form in the morning, and slowly morph into a wide cirrus cloud by the afternoon. The entire cloud will remain until sun heats it enough to bring the temps up there to the point where relative humidity falls under 100% again. (Another interesting factoid -- clouds heat the air around them. Because sunlight passes through air without heating it much at all, but will be blocked by a cloud and heat it. This is also why clouds stay up in the air -- the cloud droplets are constantly, although very slowly, falling, but they make the air around them rise fast enough to counteract that.)

So no, this is not some conspiracy. Normal airplanes in normal operation will leave behind long-lasting clouds when they fly high enough, and there is enough water in the air. This doesn't mean it has no effect on the environment -- there have been quite a few studies about the effect of contrails and the clouds they seed on the albedo of the earth. Airplanes make clouds that high a lot more common than they naturally are.

Last edited by Tuna-Fish; 02-25-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:05 AM   #25
William Gaatjes
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Originally Posted by Tuna-Fish View Post
I spent 6 months of my life putting up weather balloons on a tiny island near a mid-size international airport, and looking up at the sky and making observations about clouds.

Every day there were particularly long-lasting contrails in the air was also a day when the layers of atmosphere where they formed were at 100% relative humidity.

It's just water.

Water vapor is transparent. In order to form clouds, you need humidity and something to act as condensation points. (Pure water vapor won't turn into a cloud on it's own -- it always condenses on a surface, such as on a window, on a dust particle, or on the surface of a pre-existing cloud droplet.) Given good conditions, the upper layers of the troposphere are often supersaturated with water, but air up there is clean enough that there isn't anything for the droplets to condense around, so clouds can't form and the water remains in vapor phase. Most natural clouds in the upper troposphere are actually transported up there by clouds below rising from convection.

Add an airplane -- it leaves behind a lot of microscopic dust, and it also dumps about a ton of water behind it for every half a ton of fuel it uses. The initial contrails form from the exhaust water to the condensation centers provided by the impurities in the engine exhaust. But after that, the cloud itself provides more surface for additional water to condense. Sometimes, on clear days you could see a contrail form in the morning, and slowly morph into a wide cirrus cloud by the afternoon. The entire cloud will remain until sun heats it enough to bring the temps up there to the point where relative humidity falls under 100% again. (Another interesting factoid -- clouds heat the air around them. Because sunlight passes through air without heating it much at all, but will be blocked by a cloud and heat it. This is also why clouds stay up in the air -- the cloud droplets are constantly, although very slowly, falling, but they make the air around them rise fast enough to counteract that.)

So no, this is not some conspiracy. Normal airplanes in normal operation will leave behind long-lasting clouds when they fly high enough, and there is enough water in the air. This doesn't mean it has no effect on the environment -- there have been quite a few studies about the effect of contrails and the clouds they seed on the albedo of the earth. Airplanes make clouds that high a lot more common than they naturally are.
I find it very interesting. What kind of clouds would form up there in that region because of the jet plane exhaust ? And how would this effect the reflection of sun radiation ? Would the effect these clouds have, be able to function as a thermal blanket ? Or would these clouds have a cooling function ? I assume it would also depend on the time of the day and the season ?
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