Discussion 2024 USA Election Thread: Biden and Dems might have problems in 2024 swing states - The Gaza Issue

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Feb 4, 2009
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There are 1000s of Pal prisoners held by Israel before Oct 7 incl women and children. Israeli hostages in past have been used as bargaining chips for their release.

As of a June 23 UN report... Currently, there were 5,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons, including 160 children, and approximately 1,100 of them were detained without charge or trial...


Israel refuses to recognise Palestinian prisoners as prisoners of war, instead treating them as politically motivated criminals or terrorists and, subsequently, systematically depriving them of their rights, including the right to receive visits from their families. For instance, there were about 4,450 Palestinian “security prisoners” in Israel in April 2022, including 160 children, 32 women, and 530 administrative detainees; all were incarcerated without charge or trial.


Of course the number has swelled to 1000s more since Oct 7 and Israels security minister Ben-Gvir has recommended executing many of them to address overcrowding in the detention centers.
So it’s safe to say bothsides are wrong on this issue isn’t it?
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
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So it’s safe to say bothsides are wrong on this issue isn’t it?
Sure you can pick and choose some issues where blame can be (more or less) equally apportioned. But what about the major issues I mentioned earlier where you said "nope, I'm sitting this one out".

Is apartheid an equal issue? Is the eviction from or destruction of civilian homes, towns and villages to make way for illegal Israeli settlements an equal issue? Is the cutting off of Pal farmlands and water sources with Jewish only roads preventing their usage an equal issue? Are the forced detours where Pals have to travel many miles on foot to reach schools or hospitals an equal issue? Was the strangulation of Gaza by blockades preventing imports of vital goods necessary to the survivability of the economy an equal issue? Is the death toll involving tens of thousands of civilians that the ICC deems a genocide an 'equal' response to the deaths of a few hundred Israeli civilians which in itself a response to the killings of hundreds of Pals before that an equal issue?

Feel free to sit this one out too. But if you wish to further engage maybe best to continue in the main Israel thread.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Sure you can pick and choose some issues where blame can be (more or less) equally apportioned. But what about the major issues I mentioned earlier where you said "nope, I'm sitting this one out".

Is apartheid an equal issue? Is the eviction from or destruction of civilian homes, towns and villages to make way for illegal Israeli settlements an equal issue? Is the cutting off of Pal farmlands and water sources with Jewish only roads preventing their usage an equal issue? Are the forced detours where Pals have to travel many miles on foot to reach schools or hospitals an equal issue? Was the strangulation of Gaza by blockades preventing imports of vital goods necessary to the survivability of the economy an equal issue? Is the death toll involving tens of thousands of civilians that the ICC deems a genocide an 'equal' response to the deaths of a few hundred Israeli civilians which in itself a response to the killings of hundreds of Pals before that an equal issue?

Feel free to sit this one out too. But if you wish to further engage maybe best to continue in the main Israel thread.
The fundamental issue there is that neither side has accepted the two state solution, or at least there has been no time both simultaneously accepted it. Sometimes it has been Israel’s fault and sometimes the Palestinians’ fault.
 

amenx

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Dec 17, 2004
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The fundamental issue there is that neither side has accepted the two state solution, or at least there has been no time both simultaneously accepted it. Sometimes it has been Israel’s fault and sometimes the Palestinians’ fault.
reposted and answered in main thread

 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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The fundamental issue there is that neither side has accepted the two state solution, or at least there has been no time both simultaneously accepted it. Sometimes it has been Israel’s fault and sometimes the Palestinians’ fault.
Fact Check: Highly misleading statement
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
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Well hopefully that’s still the case in November. Because it’s stupid to think the solution to Palestine is the orange monkey winning.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
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Well hopefully that’s still the case in November. Because it’s stupid to think the solution to Palestine is the orange monkey winning.
That's not their issue. They don't think Trump is the solution for Palestine. But based on what is actually happening, neither is Biden. I mean they got a little aid in, but other than that, Rafah is next, and they are committing war crimes there with our money and weapons and support. We just vetoed recognizing Palestine as a state to establish a two state solution. These are their issues.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Papua New Guinea leader defends nation after Biden's 'cannibals' comment


MELBOURNE, Australia (AP) — Papua New Guinea’s Prime Minister James Marape accused Joe Biden of disparaging the South Pacific island nation by implying that an uncle of the U.S. president had been eaten by “cannibals” there during World War II.


“President Biden’s remarks may have been a slip of the tongue; however, my country does not deserve to be labeled as such,” Marape said in a statement provided by his office to The Associated Press on Monday.


Biden’s comments offended a key strategic ally as China moves to increase its influence in the region.

Weird that he's following in Boris Johnson's footsteps. Whether there's any historical truth in this stuff or not, can't blame the PNGers for getting a bit weary of such remarks.


Tory MP Boris Johnson - famed for apologising to the city of Liverpool - appears to have gone one better and offended an entire country.
Mr Johnson has been forced to apologise to Papua New Guinea after he linked it to "cannibalism and chief-killing".

The flamboyant frontbencher made the comments in his newspaper column.

But Papua New Guinea's High Commissioner in London failed to see the funny side and Mr Johnson had to issue an apology for causing offence.
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
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Funny the R pundit currently bashing the “decent” description. How dare you insult people that want to vote for the orange monkey as indecent.

I’ll proudly mock any Repugnican as horrible, selfish, idiotic, etc. The only way you can clean up your party is hold your nose and gasp vote D.
 

gothuevos

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Jul 28, 2010
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Pretty crazy that the SCOTUS is about to derail Jack Smith's entire prosecution and it barely made a ripple around here.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
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Hopefully Gaza thing is long forgotten by the time we get to November. Seems to be the biggest drag on Biden and he can't exactly do anything about it since it's been an unsolvable problem for millennia.

There's been more killing and hatred over religion than anything else on Earth and it's mission impossible to get Muslims and Jews to co-exist.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
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Ok, devil's advocate time: Trump might have been onto something with his comment that Israel should "wrap it up" or whatever.

Trump doesn't give a flying fuck about Pals, but he gives all the flying ducks about public perception. I think he gets that 50K Palestinians are gonna get killed one way or another, but the trick is making sure it happens as fast as possible.

In Trump world, those 50K pals are butchered in a month, and then the world moves on and forgets. Palestinians get to move on to rebuilding or whatever. Media latches on to some stupid statement and like the dog from Up is quickly distracted and onto the next thing.

In Biden's world, the (frankly pathetic) attempt at humanitarianism is just making it take 8 months to kill 50K Pals, all the hemming and hawing, and the result is somehow worse because on top of the deaths you now have this horrendous time component that is preventing the "what's next" phase from kicking in.

If Biden isn't going to actually do jack shit to help Palestinians, then it is at least politically expedient for him to push Israel along so they get done extracting their blood toll and things can start returning to just the normal level of horrific in the Gaza strip.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Ok, devil's advocate time: Trump might have been onto something with his comment that Israel should "wrap it up" or whatever.

Trump doesn't give a flying fuck about Pals, but he gives all the flying ducks about public perception. I think he gets that 50K Palestinians are gonna get killed one way or another, but the trick is making sure it happens as fast as possible.

In Trump world, those 50K pals are butchered in a month, and then the world moves on and forgets. Palestinians get to move on to rebuilding or whatever. Media latches on to some stupid statement and like the dog from Up is quickly distracted and onto the next thing.

In Biden's world, the (frankly pathetic) attempt at humanitarianism is just making it take 8 months to kill 50K Pals, all the hemming and hawing, and the result is somehow worse because on top of the deaths you now have this horrendous time component that is preventing the "what's next" phase from kicking in.

If Biden isn't going to actually do jack shit to help Palestinians, then it is at least politically expedient for him to push Israel along so they get done extracting their blood toll and things can start returning to just the normal level of horrific in the Gaza strip.
The idea that the death toll would be the same either way is based on what?

This is a terrible take.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
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Ok, devil's advocate time: Trump might have been onto something with his comment that Israel should "wrap it up" or whatever.

Trump doesn't give a flying fuck about Pals, but he gives all the flying ducks about public perception. I think he gets that 50K Palestinians are gonna get killed one way or another, but the trick is making sure it happens as fast as possible.

In Trump world, those 50K pals are butchered in a month, and then the world moves on and forgets. Palestinians get to move on to rebuilding or whatever. Media latches on to some stupid statement and like the dog from Up is quickly distracted and onto the next thing.

In Biden's world, the (frankly pathetic) attempt at humanitarianism is just making it take 8 months to kill 50K Pals, all the hemming and hawing, and the result is somehow worse because on top of the deaths you now have this horrendous time component that is preventing the "what's next" phase from kicking in.

If Biden isn't going to actually do jack shit to help Palestinians, then it is at least politically expedient for him to push Israel along so they get done extracting their blood toll and things can start returning to just the normal level of horrific in the Gaza strip.
Along with many others, I'd like the Biden administration to do more than they have to prevent further devastation. But let's not create a false equivalence between current policy and what Trump would be telling Israel. The Biden administration has reportedly told Israel to not assault Rafah, period. To some degree, you're right that the administration always feels a step behind, but they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. There is no policy we could choose that would appease both sides (and I don't mean Israel as one of those sides). We like to think POTUS is the most powerful person in the world, but is he really? Why can't he even get Bibi to stand down?

There just are no good solutions here, and I think what needs to be crystal clear to Israel is that there is a red line (i.e. full assault on Rafah), and if they cross it, there will be severe consequences (we pull the plug on military aid). Otherwise we're a dog that's all bark, and no bite. (To state the obvious, I don't think we're anywhere near abandoning Israel as a staunch ally, for reasons that do include pro-Israel lobbying.)

If Trump was POTUS, he would have green-lit a ground invasion of Rafah over a month ago. How do you even know that 50k deaths are inevitable any way you slice it, so it's politically preferable to get it over with quickly? For one, I think the Biden administration is trying to prevent 50k more deaths. And two, I think assaulting Rafah would open the door to Hezbollah and Iran escalating, and now you have a much more dangerous regional war that almost certainly draws in U.S. armed forces.

I don't think Gaza will be a top-4 issue for voters in November (1 and 2 are clearly the economy and the southern border). It could be important in Michigan*, but "It's the economy, stupid" will most likely be decisive across the handful of battleground states. IMHO people's feelings about the economy will be baked in sometime this summer, and are unlikely to change a month or two before the election.

* Very sobering article centered around Dearborn:
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
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The idea that the death toll would be the same either way is based on what?

This is a terrible take.

I agree with @GodisanAtheist take.

It was stupid of Biden to depend on Muslim votes in the first place.

* Very sobering article centered around Dearborn:

The entire thing hinges on swing states and if Biden can't even hold onto the midwest.. it's over barring some miracle in the deep south.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I agree with him.

It was stupid of Biden to depend on Muslim votes in the first place.



The entire thing hinges on swing states and if Biden can't even hold onto the midwest.. it's over barring some miracle in the deep south.
‘Getting it over with’ most likely means WAY more dead people, so you’re ok with that?

Funny how people are mad at Biden due to civilian deaths caused by Israel and then when Trump is like ‘just kill them all’ you’re fine with it.

Reminds me of how people were mad at Obama over drone strike fatalities but when Trump hugely increased them nobody cared.
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
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We like to think POTUS is the most powerful person in the world, but is he really? Why can't he even get Bibi to stand down?
But each world leader does have the power to put their hand on the scale. Unfortunately for POTUS they’d get far more scrutiny from the western world than dictators that don’t give a rats ass what they do. Bibi is one of those that just doesn’t care. Like no matter how much Biden insists on a seize fire, cutting off aid won’t make a difference in the short term. Unless it drags on for a year and Israel gets no more aid for that entire time before he’ll change his mind.