In a country dominated by 'fast food', why not 'fast housing' - "McHouses" for the people.

[BoomerD]

I live in a small beach town on the WA coast. We’re primarily a tourist town, nut have about 6500 full-time residents…MOST of us are single-family homeowners, but there are a few condominium owners, apartment dwellers, house renters, with a butt load of vacation homes, and RV lots. (limited to 90 days occupancy per year)
I have 2 story houses on both sides of me…one is a vacation home for a contractor out of Tacoma and his family…I MIGHT see them 4 times per year. The other side belongs to one of the owners of the local Chinese restaurant. When we moved in 5 years ago, they had 4 kids living with them. (One has gone off to college, another one is almost ready to go to college…but if the school bus didn’t stop in front of their house, I’d never know they have kids…they don’t play outside, make almost no noise…and the parents work at their restaurant so much, it’s almost like no one lives there.

Behind my house is a state owned wetlands that’s a wildlife preserve…but is open to water fowl hunting during the season. There’s about 400 yards of wetlands…then the bay. No one will ever be able to build there.

I LOVE living here…but, yes, being out past the ass end of BFE, there are drawbacks.
Our only “real” grocery store charges prices that border on outright rape…
Our only gas station (in town…there are 2 out on the highway) is always at least 30 cents/ gallon more than the nearest “town.(25 miles) And during the tourist season, might be 50 cents to almost $1.00/gallon more.
We have a small medical/dental clinic in town…the doctor retired…so there’s only a couple of nurse practitioners there now, so most people drive about an hour to get medical care at the better hospital/medical clinic in the county…or 75 miles to Olympia, 100 miles to Tacoma, or 130+ miles to Seattle.

Still…living in a place that almost has more deer than people, with black bears and cougars roaming the streets, and at night, it can be dead silent…with the silence usually broken only by the sounds of the waves…or the cacophony of frogs in the wetland…I’ll take the inconveniences over living nut to butt in a big city. If you like city life…good for you, but it ain’t for everyone.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Transportation costs are actually not that large of a cost associated food, so small increases in gas prices aren't that impactful overall.

Also, you'll be happy to learn that adjusted for inflation, gas prices are largely stable over the last few decades.

Adjusting for inflation doesn't make it better though, it still costs more. It means that a $20 bill doesn't get you as much as it did before and that's the part that matters. I remember back in the 90's when my parents would say they're putting 20 bucks of gas in the car and it meant they were mostly filling it. Now it gets you to the next gas station.

Everything revolves around gas/oil prices because everything uses oil from manufacturing to transportation. Everything people in big cities rely on come from smaller cities, rural areas or even far remote areas (ex: forestry products and minerals).

In a perfect world we'd go all electric, but that is proving to not be cost effective either due to high cost of batteries. The car companies themselves are even reporting losses and going back to making gas vehicles. IMO they need to make plug-in series hybrids with small battery the standard as that would be the best balance, but that's a whole other subject. I personally don't drive a lot, the F150 tank lasts me about a month. While it is annoying to see them gouging us with the gas prices it's not actually affecting me directly that much, but I do know it's contributing to the overall cost of everything else.

 

[Brainonska511]

Adjusting for inflation doesn't make it better though, it still costs more. It means that a $20 bill doesn't get you as much as it did before and that's the part that matters. I remember back in the 90's when my parents would say they're putting 20 bucks of gas in the car and it meant they were mostly filling it. Now it gets you to the next gas station.

Everything revolves around gas/oil prices because everything uses oil from manufacturing to transportation. Everything people in big cities rely on come from smaller cities, rural areas or even far remote areas (ex: forestry products and minerals).

In a perfect world we'd go all electric, but that is proving to not be cost effective either due to high cost of batteries. The car companies themselves are even reporting losses and going back to making gas vehicles. IMO they need to make plug-in series hybrids with small battery the standard as that would be the best balance, but that's a whole other subject. I personally don't drive a lot, the F150 tank lasts me about a month. While it is annoying to see them gouging us with the gas prices it's not actually affecting me directly that much, but I do know it's contributing to the overall cost of everything else.

Adjusting for inflation means it costs the same. That's the whole reason to adjust for inflation.

And in a perfect world, we'd move towards denser living that existed in the past, where residential and commercial uses were mixed, and people could get around with public transit and other personal mobility means. There simply isn't enough space for everyone to be driving a car wherever they want. And one of the ways we can realize that is by keeping gas prices high. If gas prices are low, people won't give a shit and buy gas guzzling vehicles they don't really need.

 

[BoomerD]

Transportation costs are actually not that large of a cost associated food, so small increases in gas prices aren't that impactful overall.

Also, you'll be happy to learn that adjusted for inflation, gas prices are largely stable over the last few decades.

Gawd-dammit…gasoline should still be around 35 cents/gallon! (Just accounting for inflation, that would be about $2.82 today)

 

[Fenixgoon]

Adjusting for inflation doesn't make it better though, it still costs more. It means that a $20 bill doesn't get you as much as it did before and that's the part that matters. I remember back in the 90's when my parents would say they're putting 20 bucks of gas in the car and it meant they were mostly filling it. Now it gets you to the next gas station.

Everything revolves around gas/oil prices because everything uses oil from manufacturing to transportation. Everything people in big cities rely on come from smaller cities, rural areas or even far remote areas (ex: forestry products and minerals).

In a perfect world we'd go all electric, but that is proving to not be cost effective either due to high cost of batteries. The car companies themselves are even reporting losses and going back to making gas vehicles. IMO they need to make plug-in series hybrids with small battery the standard as that would be the best balance, but that's a whole other subject. I personally don't drive a lot, the F150 tank lasts me about a month. While it is annoying to see them gouging us with the gas prices it's not actually affecting me directly that much, but I do know it's contributing to the overall cost of everything else.

Tell me you have no idea of how math and economics work without telling me you have no idea how math and economics work.

Also, don't buy gas guzzlers. My Mazda3 hatch gets 40mpg highway and I fit a 15ft siding panel inside it.

If I needed to buy a bunch of plywood, I can rent a truck at the hardware store. That costs a lot less than the purchase price, insurance, and fuel costs of a truck that will see hauling use a couple times a year at best.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Adjusting for inflation means it costs the same. That's the whole reason to adjust for inflation.

But it doesn't. 20 bucks doesn't buy you the same as it did before. That means you need to work harder and/or longer so you can make more money, to get the same thing. If something cost $20 one day and the next day it cost $30, it's more expensive. Whether it's one day difference or one decade doesn't change that.

Denser living sucks, sure some people might like it, but trying to force it, is far from a perfect world.

 

[Fenixgoon]

But it doesn't. 20 bucks doesn't buy you the same as it did before. That means you need to work harder and/or longer so you can make more money, to get the same thing. If something cost $20 one day and the next day it cost $30, it's more expensive. Whether it's one day difference or one decade doesn't change that.

Denser living sucks, sure some people might like it, but trying to force it, is far from a perfect world.

$20 also represented a larger fraction of income 40 years ago. Which is why you adjust for inflation.

Edit: grammar

 

[Brainonska511]

But it doesn't. 20 bucks doesn't buy you the same as it did before. That means you need to work harder and/or longer so you can make more money, to get the same thing. If something cost $20 one day and the next day it cost $30, it's more expensive. Whether it's one day difference or one decade doesn't change that.

Yeah, that's not how any of this works. Your lack of understanding doesn't change that. Inflation adjusted basically means the same amount of work gets you the same purchasing power, if your wages are keeping up with inflation.

Denser living sucks, sure some people might like it, but trying to force it, is far from a perfect world.

Based on prices in cities vs suburbs and rural areas, the market clearly disagrees with you and people strongly prefer denser areas with more amenities.

 

[K1052]

We have a small medical/dental clinic in town…the doctor retired…so there’s only a couple of nurse practitioners there now, so most people drive about an hour to get medical care at the better hospital/medical clinic in the county…or 75 miles to Olympia, 100 miles to Tacoma, or 130+ miles to Seattle.

I mean this is one of those things that is fine until it isn't. My dad would probably be dead twice over 10-15 years ago instead of still walking around if he was that far from a hospital and specialty medical care.

 

[MrSquished]

I'm literally gonna walk down to the pizza place at the end of my block for lunch in a while so I'm skeptical of your frequency estimate.

The guy is so fucking clueless. Because he is mostly stays at home and does nothing but be ignorant. And has no idea what culture is or going out really means, so nobody else must either.

15 minute walkable cities are a huge selling point. This is for people that think life is more than just staying at home.

 

[nakedfrog]

Tell me you have no idea of how math and economics work without telling me you have no idea how math and economics work.

We'll just add this to the list of things he doesn't know how they work, with the unfortunate of caveat that he's not interested in knowing how anything works.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah, that's not how any of this works. Your lack of understanding doesn't change that. Inflation adjusted basically means the same amount of work gets you the same purchasing power, if your wages are keeping up with inflation.

That's rarely the case. Think of it from the point of view of a kid going around shoveling driveways for 20 bucks. The kid is saving up for a skidoo. The kid doing that in the 90's had to shovel way less driveways than the kid doing the same today, because skidoos are way more expensive now. The kid can try to charge more but the resident is going to expect more out of it, maybe go out back and do the patio too. Of course this might be a bad example, because some generous people who know how bad inflation is now might voluntarily give more money, but workplaces won't do this without a flight, such as threatening to go on strike, but typically you're just expected to move up to a higher position.

I just find it weird how some people defend inflation. It's actually very bad for everyone except the rich who are the ones benefiting from it while forcing everyone else to adjust their lives for it and reduce their quality of life.

But anyway this is a totally different tangent.

 

[Brainonska511]

Debtors, not rich people, are actually the biggest winners in inflation. It means they need less inflation-adjusted dollars to pay off their debt.

And in the US, as of late, wage growth for most people, particularly on the low end, are beating inflation. If you haven't gotten a raise, maybe you should find new employment (something that is easier to do if you live in an area of high economic opportunity, like a city).

 

[Red Squirrel]

I mean this is one of those things that is fine until it isn't. My dad would probably be dead twice over 10-15 years ago instead of still walking around if he was that far from a hospital and specialty medical care.

Medical stuff is definitely a big trade off. People who have chronic medical issues are often forced to live in big cities to have better access to care. I know family who have done it for their kids or other loved ones. When the person in question dies they end up moving back here when they realize they don't need to be down there anymore.

Being within any city jurisdiction, even small one at least gives you access to emergency care though, even if they have to air ambulance you to a better hospital. Small town hospitals will have what they need to make you stable. But for chronic stuff where you need to keep seeing a specialist then yeah you might have no choice but to be in a major city, which can really suck.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Housing density is a weird point to argue. I mean market forces are one of the most powerful forces in human nature and the simple fact that urban housing/land is expensive and rural housing/land is cheap, cities are heavily populated and rural areas are not sort of speaks to preference alone.

I'm sure a lot of people in cities think they want that idyllic rural lifestyle because we all want what we don't have, and are in cities due to job opportunities but that again goes back to preference.

 

[Brainonska511]

Housing density is a weird point to argue. I mean market forces are one of the most powerful forces in human nature and the simple fact that urban housing/land is expensive and rural housing/land is cheap, cities are heavily populated and rural areas are not sort of speaks to preference alone.

I'm sure a lot of people in cities think they want that idyllic rural lifestyle because we all want what we don't have, and are in cities due to job opportunities but that again goes back to preference.

Market forces aren't stopping density. Municipalities with arbitrary restrictive zoning and building codes are doing that all on their own.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Market forces aren't stopping density. Municipalities with arbitrary restrictive zoning and building codes are doing that all on their own.

-Ok, I agree with you and that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

I'm saying dense areas are expensive because people want to live there. Rural areas are cheap because people don't.

 

[BoomerD]

I mean this is one of those things that is fine until it isn't. My dad would probably be dead twice over 10-15 years ago instead of still walking around if he was that far from a hospital and specialty medical care.

Yeah, it hit us last December when my wife had her stroke... Took more than an hour to get her to the hospital...although, we did drive by a hospital that is much closer...but the locals refer to it as"the place where people go to die." (and it's where the local fire department aid car/ ambulance would have taken her) We're considering moving, not to the city...but closer to medical care.

 

[jpiniero]

I'm saying dense areas are expensive because people want to live there. Rural areas are cheap because people don't.

A lot of that is because of job/commute reasons though. Witness all those people who left the Bay Area because they thought they could WFH. I imagine they will end up going back.

And in the US, as of late, wage growth for most people, particularly on the low end, are beating inflation.

At the low end there's been wage growth but not anywhere near the 80% inflation we've had since the pandemic.

 

[Brainonska511]

At the low end there's been wage growth but not anywhere near the 80% inflation we've had since the pandemic.

Good news: Inflation has not been at 80% since the pandemic.

 

[jpiniero]

Good news: Inflation has not been at 80% since the pandemic.

If you've been paying attention, it has. There's always a bit of... manipulating... when it comes to data like that from the Government. Remember the whole "It's transitory!" from Powell?

The Inflation from the pandemic is pretty much the main reason why Housing is effed. It goes beyond that but that is the main one.

 

[Brainonska511]

If you've been paying attention, it has.

I have, and the data says it hasn't been anywhere close to 80%.

Maybe in vibes world it's like that.

 

[Red Squirrel]

You just need to actually look at prices of goods for yourself and look at your own bills to know that it's way higher than what they tell us. Building materials and cars especially, but also utility bills, and property taxes. Roxul insulation for example is now like $90 per bundle and that covers like 60 sqft. Plywood and most dimensional lumber has easily doubled as well. 2x4x8 seems to be the only dimension that is not quite as high, but it did go up to like 10 bucks at some point. It's now about 4 bucks.

At this point any new housing being built is going to cost a lot more than it did before to build the same thing. As a result they will need to charge more for it. This is not exactly great and does not solve the housing affordability issue. While we do need more housing, what we also need is to put a full stop to the mass immigration program. That would at least help a little bit.

 

[spacejamz]

I have, and the data says it hasn't been anywhere close to 80%.

Maybe in vibes world it's like that.

Not saying it is 80% but a 12 pack of soda used be $6 and it is $10 now... same with a 1/2 gallon of blue bell ice cream, was $6 and is now $10 (reg prices not sale prices at my local big chain grocery store). These are 2 normal every day items that have gone up this much is past 2-3 years.

 

[K1052]

Not saying it is 80% but a 12 pack of soda used be $6 and it is $10 now... same with a 1/2 gallon of blue bell ice cream, was $6 and is now $10 (reg prices not sale prices at my local big chain grocery store). These are 2 normal every day items that have gone up this much is past 2-3 years.

Go to Walmart or Target. It isn't $10 for a 12 pack there, more like $6-8 depending what you are buying.