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Andrew111
06-19-2002, 07:49 PM
I'm 17 and I decided to sign up for the Army under the delayed entry program. I take all those tests, and I get a very good job because I scored fairly well in the ASVAB test, I got an 88 and the highest score you can get is a 99. I get a $1,000 bonus with the job, and it is the type of job I was aiming for too. The official title is Network Switch System Operator, I WOULD have been able to build and maintain computer networks for the Army, and the job provides excellent opportunities for advancement. It also has secret security clearance as well.

After I get through with all the testing at the facility, I go home all happy because I have an excellent future with this job. I go to my first delayed entry event and it was pretty fun....then a few days later I get a call from my recruiter. He says he has bad news and tells me I tested positive for cocaine in the urinalysis. I'm thinking he must be joking, but he said he wasn't. My jaw dropped because I haven't used a damn illegal drug ever in my life. Hell, I was friends with a guy since we were 7 years old, but when he started getting into drugs I wouldn't have any part of it. I swear I have never done drugs, but I test positive for cocaine.......This is utter BS to the extreme. Their goes my damn future.

I decide to search around on Google, and I find all these sites saying how easy it can be to test positive for illegal drugs you have never taken. I could barely take it, because I know damn well my test results weren't accurate and the Army refuses to let me take the test again. They said I was out, even though the urinalysis has been proved to be wrong before, I found several cases where people had their lives screwed over because of inaccurate results. And the funny thing is that once you test positive, you are out. You lose your test scores for ASVAB, and you lose your job. You have to wait a year to try getting back in. This is outrageous, has anyone else had this happen to them with these drug tests? I have to get a Congressional before the Army will even think of overturning my dismissal, I am steaming mad right now. I really needed to rant, and I want to know if anyone else here has had this happen to them. Also, any suggestions you may have on how to get these guys to let me back in. They say the only chance I got is to get a Congressional.

06-19-2002, 07:51 PM
Sorry to hear that man. I don't know how you feel, but I hope something good comes outta this.

If you want to piss the army off, go into the navy.

ThreeLeggedGnome
06-19-2002, 07:54 PM
Oh Well. Go to college instead and serve your country in another way. You scored high on that test im sure youre intelligent. Maybe, that's how things work themselves out sometimes. You may never know. Maybe the army wasn't right for you. I wouldn't be too upset you can always join the ROTC in most major universities if armforce is your thing. Best of luck.

Atrail
06-19-2002, 07:54 PM
Call your local Congressman and make your case!

XMan
06-19-2002, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by: Atrail
Call your local Congressman and make your case!

I would pay to have yourself tested for drugs first. If you've got a paper in hand from a reputable company saying you are clean, you will be able to make your case more easily.

ThePresence
06-19-2002, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by: Atrail
Call your local Congressman and make your case!
Cant hurt to try!

UltraQuiet
06-19-2002, 07:56 PM
deleted

MadRat
06-19-2002, 07:58 PM
You're too smart for the Army anyhow. Besides that, you'd of been on the front lines with Iraq next spring...

06-19-2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

If you want to piss the army off, go into the navy

Don't bother. We want neither illegal drug users nor liars. Thank you.


Chief

Are you saying that you think this kid is lying and/or taking drugs, or that you people wouldn't bother to retest because the army already did?

Viper GTS
06-19-2002, 07:59 PM
My dad got a false positive for meth after an on-job accident (he walked around a corner into bright sunlight & walked chest first into a steal beam that was sitting on a rack). They sent the sample to a higher-priced, more accurate lab & they said it wasn't meth it was OTC pseudophedrine hydrochloride - ie Sudafed.

Surely there must be SOME way to get the sample tested again.

...If you really want to be in the ARMY that bad.

i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Viper GTS

Andrew111
06-19-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

If you want to piss the army off, go into the navy

Don't bother. We want neither illegal drug users nor liars. Thank you.


Chief
Is that supposed to be funny? Why would I lie on a forum, I'm posting for suggestions on what the hell to do. Do some searching on Google and you'll find others screwed over by drug tests that were inaccurate.

charrison
06-19-2002, 08:02 PM
I heard the military take on cocaine testing a few weeks ago.

Cocaine is the one drug that does easily produce false positives. Urine is not checked for cocaine, but for a chemical that is created by you body while getting rid of it. If a sample triggers a positive it is immediatly retested. A very, very, very small fraction of false positive can be attributed to mishandling of the sample.

Apparently the military also has a low threshold for a sample to test positive. If someone slipped some into a drink, it would not be enough to get you noticbly high, but would enough to be positive.

The military has a zero tolerance for drug users and for good reason.

It is unfortunate if in fact you did get a false positive, but the rules are there for a reason.

Atrail
06-19-2002, 08:02 PM
Is that supposed to be funny? Why would I lie on a forum, I'm posting for suggestions on what the hell to do. Do some searching on Google and you'll find others screwed over by drug tests that were inaccurate.

Well I got a good laugh out of it. :D
I am sure it was all in good humor.

UltraQuiet
06-19-2002, 08:10 PM
Is that supposed to be funny? Why would I lie on a forum, I'm posting for suggestions on what the hell to do. Do some searching on Google and you'll find others screwed over by drug tests that were inaccurate.

No it's very serious. If I had a nickel for every guy that claimed he got screwed over on a drug test I could retire and never work again. The days of mishandling samples are over. Thing of the past. When you test positive they immediately remove your sample from the batch and test it six ways to Sunday. The odds of you getting a false positive, irregardless of what some malcontents website says, are so astronomical that I have absolutely no compunction at all about making the statement I did. As far as you lying on a forum people lie about everything on a forum, how much money they make, their cars, girlfriends, etc. I couldn't begin to understand why they lie or you.


Chief

aphex
06-19-2002, 08:11 PM
** aphexII ducks and hides as the plot thickens...

glenn1
06-19-2002, 08:11 PM
If a sample triggers a positive it is immediatly retested. A very, very, very small fraction of false positive can be attributed to mishandling of the sample.

I daresay infinitesimal. For the Army anyway, the way a urinanalysis is conducted, you get your ID checked and a bottle is prepared, serialized and cross-referenced in several ways. You then get escorted to the testing area, where an NCO or officer watches you. The bottle has to be visible at all times, if it's ever out of the observer's sight, the test is invalid. Once you've completed your sample, you walk back to the ID station (still under escort) where the bottle is sealed with special anti-tamper tape, and several control and identification tags placed on the bottle, all the with test control officer's and the test taker's signature and/or initials. Positive 100% physical control of all specimen bottles has to be maintained until delivery at the testing lab. Again, if the bottles are ever out of sight and physical control, the samples are deemed invalid. Any positive samples are immediately retested with more accurate tests.

You might not have realized it, but if you pissed "hot" in a military urinanalysis test, you HAVE been exposed to cocaine. That doesn't necessarily mean you're a user or abuser, but that's how things go i guess.

Lucky
06-19-2002, 08:14 PM
deleted

911paramedic
06-19-2002, 08:17 PM
You will never get the army to accept your explanation why your test came back positive, even if it was an error.

You can get a better test done by a good lab. Have them test your hair instead of urine, it will be accurate to as long as your hair is. What I mean is, your hair stores this information as long as it grows, the longer the hair, the longer the history.

her209
06-19-2002, 08:19 PM
Has Bush been screwing around in the labs again? :P

UltraQuiet
06-19-2002, 08:20 PM
I apologize to Andrew111 for calling him a liar.


It is possible that he had a false positive (inifitesimal) or the sample was mixed up. My comments on the veracity of the drug test however are accurate.

Andrew111
06-19-2002, 08:26 PM
My recruiter informed me that Cocaine will only show up for 2-3 days after use. I knew I was going to go down to Des Moines, Iowa for the drug testing and to pick my job about a week in advance. I would not be stupid enough to take cocaine at that time, and I live in a small town, I would not know where to get it anyway. You have your opinion, but I know I haven't used Cocaine ever.

Right after taking that urinalysis, they asked me if my social security number was blah-blah-blah and it wasn't, so I'm thinking that they may have switched test samples with someone else by accident. You put a sticker with your social security number on the test sample, you are supposed to see them put it on.....I was not allowed to see the sticker to make sure it was my social security number. I did not know of this untill the recruiter talked to me about it after the test results were discovered.

Viper GTS
06-19-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by: Andrew111
My recruiter informed me that Cocaine will only show up for 2-3 days after use. I knew I was going to go down to Des Moines, Iowa for the drug testing and to pick my job about a week in advance. I would not be stupid enough to take cocaine at that time, and I live in a small town, I would not know where to get it anyway. You have your opinion, but I know I haven't used Cocaine ever.

Right after taking that urinalysis, they asked me if my social security number was blah-blah-blah and it wasn't, so I'm thinking that they may have switched test samples with someone else by accident. You put a sticker with your social security number on the test sample, you are supposed to see them put it on.....I was not allowed to see the sticker to make sure it was my social security number. I did not know of this untill the recruiter talked to me about it after the test results were discovered.

They read you the wrong SSN & you didn't object? When your piss was being labelled??

i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Viper GTS

charrison
06-19-2002, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by: Andrew111
My recruiter informed me that Cocaine will only show up for 2-3 days after use. I knew I was going to go down to Des Moines, Iowa for the drug testing and to pick my job about a week in advance. I would not be stupid enough to take cocaine at that time, and I live in a small town, I would not know where to get it anyway. You have your opinion, but I know I haven't used Cocaine ever.

Right after taking that urinalysis, they asked me if my social security number was blah-blah-blah and it wasn't, so I'm thinking that they may have switched test samples with someone else by accident. You put a sticker with your social security number on the test sample, you are supposed to see them put it on.....I was not allowed to see the sticker to make sure it was my social security number. I did not know of this untill the recruiter talked to me about it after the test results were discovered.



For scoring so high on the military entry test, you aint so bright. If you knew there was error, you should have made sure it got fixed.

oldsmoboat
06-19-2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by: MadRat
You're too smart for the Army anyhow. Besides that, you'd of been on the front lines with Iraq next spring...
That's pretty funny. I didn't know they started using Chairborne Rangers in Combat Arms.

eLiTeGoodGuy
06-19-2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: Andrew111
My recruiter informed me that Cocaine will only show up for 2-3 days after use. I knew I was going to go down to Des Moines, Iowa for the drug testing and to pick my job about a week in advance. I would not be stupid enough to take cocaine at that time, and I live in a small town, I would not know where to get it anyway. You have your opinion, but I know I haven't used Cocaine ever.

Right after taking that urinalysis, they asked me if my social security number was blah-blah-blah and it wasn't, so I'm thinking that they may have switched test samples with someone else by accident. You put a sticker with your social security number on the test sample, you are supposed to see them put it on.....I was not allowed to see the sticker to make sure it was my social security number. I did not know of this untill the recruiter talked to me about it after the test results were discovered.

They read you the wrong SSN & you didn't object? When your piss was being labelled??

i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Viper GTS Don't forget they also make you sign the sticker once its on the bottle confirming that everything on the sticker is 100% correct. At least they do in the MEPS station in Beckley, WV.

oldsmoboat
06-19-2002, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: Andrew111
My recruiter informed me that Cocaine will only show up for 2-3 days after use. I knew I was going to go down to Des Moines, Iowa for the drug testing and to pick my job about a week in advance. I would not be stupid enough to take cocaine at that time, and I live in a small town, I would not know where to get it anyway. You have your opinion, but I know I haven't used Cocaine ever.

Right after taking that urinalysis, they asked me if my social security number was blah-blah-blah and it wasn't, so I'm thinking that they may have switched test samples with someone else by accident. You put a sticker with your social security number on the test sample, you are supposed to see them put it on.....I was not allowed to see the sticker to make sure it was my social security number. I did not know of this untill the recruiter talked to me about it after the test results were discovered.

They read you the wrong SSN & you didn't object? When your piss was being labelled??

i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Viper GTS
He was high.

j/k

Andrew111
06-19-2002, 08:40 PM
No, I told them it was the wrong one. Like I said, the social security number they read to me might have been the sticker put on MY test sample. I was not able to see the sticker placed on the test sample, so I can not rule it out that they put the wrong SS# on my sample. The only identification I could see on those test samples is that sticker with your SS#. Since they could have gotten two samples switched around, they might not notice anything wrong because I did not see any other identification on the test sample that would verify whos sample it is.

When they asked me my SS# and I corrected him, I am fairly positive my sticker was already placed on the sample, because I was looking at the guy asking me the question while the other person took care of the samples and put the stickers on them.

UltraQuiet
06-19-2002, 08:41 PM
Don't forget they also make you sign the sticker once its on the bottle confirming that everything on the sticker is 100% correct. At least they do in the MEPS station in Beckley, WV.

They do at every MEPS, every duty station, everywhere. The sample has to be able to withstand a chain of custody examination to exclude the possibility of tampering. Hopefully Don_Vito will show up and shed some light on this. Like how many guys use the false positive defense and win, how many guys use the "somebody must have slipped it into my drink" defense and win. It has been my experience that the answer to both of those questions is none.
But hey you live long enough and you get to see everything.

Andrew111
06-19-2002, 08:44 PM
Like I said before as well, I didn't know you were supposed to see them put your SS# sticker on the sample and verify the SS# until my recruiter talked to me after we got the results back. I wasn't really in the mood to stay there looking at my pee, because they force you to sign your name on paper before washing your hands, and their is only one pen used by everyone who does the test. I wanted to wash my hands ASAP after touching that damn pen.

glenn1
06-19-2002, 08:44 PM
I decide to search around on Google, and I find all these sites saying how easy it can be to test positive for illegal drugs you have never taken. I could barely take it, because I know damn well my test results weren't accurate and the Army refuses to let me take the test again.


No, I told them it was the wrong one. Like I said, the social security number they read to me might have been the sticker put on MY test sample. I was not able to see the sticker placed on the test sample, so I can not rule it out that they put the wrong SS# on my sample.

You ought to submit your story to some of those websites you're speaking about which inform folks about how easy it is to get a false positive. I'm sure yours will be just another evidentiary nail in the coffin of their definitive study about the fallibility of drug testing.

burnedout
06-19-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by: glenn1

If a sample triggers a positive it is immediatly retested. A very, very, very small fraction of false positive can be attributed to mishandling of the sample.

I daresay infinitesimal. For the Army anyway, the way a urinanalysis is conducted, you get your ID checked and a bottle is prepared, serialized and cross-referenced in several ways. You then get escorted to the testing area, where an NCO or officer watches you. The bottle has to be visible at all times, if it's ever out of the observer's sight, the test is invalid. Once you've completed your sample, you walk back to the ID station (still under escort) where the bottle is sealed with special anti-tamper tape, and several control and identification tags placed on the bottle, all the with test control officer's and the test taker's signature and/or initials. Positive 100% physical control of all specimen bottles has to be maintained until delivery at the testing lab. Again, if the bottles are ever out of sight and physical control, the samples are deemed invalid. Any positive samples are immediately retested with more accurate tests.

You might not have realized it, but if you pissed "hot" in a military urinanalysis test, you HAVE been exposed to cocaine. That doesn't necessarily mean you're a user or abuser, but that's how things go i guess.

That's a good synopsis. The old adage for the Drug and Alcohol NCO was "I take alot of sh*t off people, but this is ridiculous!"

I've seen two active duty positives overturned. One in '94 by an O-5 at battalion level because of chain-of-custody improprieties. Another at Court Martial in '99. Again because of chain-of-custody improprieties.

Andrew111: I believe MEPPS (where you took your physical) may not have changed too much since "back in the day" 12-13 years ago when I recruited for active.

If you are being totally honest with us here on this board, and most importantly yourself, then try this:

1.) Go take a drug test from an independent testing laboratory. Results from two different laboratories would be better. ASAP.

2.) Yes, get your congressman involved as well as your parents.

3.) Perhaps your parents might contact the recruiting battalion SGM and Battalion Commander. It is up to you to prove MEPPCOM wrong. I've seen results on drug tests proven wrong before, but such things are rare. Especially nowadays. Perhaps this may prompt an examination of MEPPS chain-of-custody procedures.

I'm not in anyway implying such measures will actually work. However, if you are serious, this is probably one of your few alternatives.

Formerly, Marijuana DQs were 6 months and Cocaine DQs were 2 years. But seeing as how they tightened up the drug policy in recent years, disquals may now be permanent.

chiwawa626
06-19-2002, 08:47 PM
goto a local news station and tell them ur story and take a 3rd party test and stuff and show the news what happen wrong i guess and see if theyll air it :)

charrison
06-19-2002, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Don't forget they also make you sign the sticker once its on the bottle confirming that everything on the sticker is 100% correct. At least they do in the MEPS station in Beckley, WV.

They do at every MEPS, every duty station, everywhere. The sample has to be able to withstand a chain of custody examination to exclude the possibility of tampering. Hopefully Don_Vito will show up and shed some light on this. Like how many guys use the false positive defense and win, how many guys use the "somebody must have slipped it into my drink" defense and win. It has been my experience that the answer to both of those questions is none.
But hey you live long enough and you get to see everything.

Dave that sounds like how the Air Force does it. I guy where I work just got knocked out on such a test. His defense of false positive failed. He is lucky he gets to keep his retirement.

tcsenter
06-19-2002, 08:52 PM
My dad got a false positive for meth after an on-job accident (he walked around a corner into bright sunlight & walked chest first into a steal beam that was sitting on a rack). They sent the sample to a higher-priced, more accurate lab & they said it wasn't meth it was OTC pseudophedrine hydrochloride - ie Sudafed.Ritalin will also indicate methamphetamine, since Ritalin IS methamphetamine. hehe

Sorry to hear about your experience, no test is 100% accurate, for better or worse. It is indisputable that urinalysis can produce all sorts of false positives and negatives, the sample can be adulterated and contaminated, etc. There is all kinds of cocaine residue floating around on paper money that has been rolled-up and used as a snorter. It is quite unreasonable that the military has a 'no exceptions' policy, simply because it is well-known that many things can erroneously skew these tests.

I think you should protect yourself, whether or not the military will allow another test, by having an independent lab do another test ASAP! Also, there are tests that can detect drug use as far back as 6 months, using fingernail or hair samples. I don't know how accessible or affordable those tests are, but if you tested negative through one of those tests, it would go a long way towards protecting yourself if this should ever come back and haunt you. As you have discovered on the internet, these things CAN come back and haunt you.

charrison
06-19-2002, 08:55 PM
There is all kinds of cocaine residue floating around on paper money that has been rolled-up and used as a snorter.


This would not trigger a positive. They do not test for cocaine in the urine sample.

UltraQuiet
06-19-2002, 08:58 PM
This would not trigger a positive. They do not test for cocaine in the urine sample.

Who doesn't?

glenn1
06-19-2002, 08:58 PM
It is quite unreasonable that the military has a 'no exceptions' policy, simply because it is well-known that many things can erroneously skew these tests.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice is what applies here (Article 92 and 112a in particular), the creation of and contents of which are acts of the United States Congress. You may feel that it's unreasonable, but evidently the Legislative branch of your government does not.

Zebo
06-19-2002, 09:01 PM
The armed forces ask you if you have taken any poerscription medications what did you say? NO i bet and in fact you took some codine or another signature for cocain. You need to find out what you took and notify proper authorities. Also you can appleal for a re-test with a claim of custodial error.

Good luck and if you are using stop.

Don Vito Corleone
06-19-2002, 09:02 PM
I cannot speak for the other services, but I know the Air Force has very specific, incredibly finicky requirements for sample collection (in the unlikely event anyone is curious, you can see our regulation here (http://afpubs.hq.af.mil/pubfiles/af/44/afi44-120/afi44-120.pdf)), and the member being tested is required to sign over the tape sealing the bottle, obviating any chance for the kind of error Andrew theorizes. I do not know whether every MEPS station follows similar rules, but I would think they would, and frankly I would regard MEPS as the last place I would expect to see a false positive, since the people taking the samples are so experienced.

To the best of my knowledge it has been several years since any of the military labs who actually process the samples were known to have any false positives due to mishandling once the samples reach the lab (though I really only deal with the Brooks AFB lab on any routine basis).

I concur with Glenn: if you tested positive for BZ (the cocaine metabolite found in urine), you almost certainly HAVE been exposed to cocaine.

tcsenter
06-19-2002, 09:03 PM
This would not trigger a positive. They do not test for cocaine in the urine sample.Correct, they test for metabolites, which if you got highly concentrated residue on your fingers, then put them in your mouth...

A friend of mine successfully challenged the results of an NTSB drug test several years ago, back when people were saying the same things about the accuracy of urinalysis and how it was impossible to adulterate the sample.

I worked in the medical field for several years, and judging by the number of incompetent people I worked with on a routine basis, a reality that is precipitated by all facets of the medical services community being under pressure to reduce costs by hiring inexperienced, incompetent, or untrained people, nothing would surprise me anymore.

If you told me that someone spilled a bottle of urine on the floor, then soaked it up with a sheet of Bounty and rung-it back in the cup, I would not find it unbelievable in the least.

charrison
06-19-2002, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

This would not trigger a positive. They do not test for cocaine in the urine sample.

Who doesn't?

The cocaine urine test checks for chemical that is a product of the body getting rid of the cocaine, but not cocaine itself. This chemical does not occur in any over the counter or prescription drug. If you fail this test, there has been cocaine been cocaine in your body.

charrison
06-19-2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by: tcsenter

This would not trigger a positive. They do not test for cocaine in the urine sample.Correct, they test for metabolites, which if you got highly concentrated residue on your fingers, then put them in your mouth...


You might get enough residue if you licked $100 worth of dollar bills.....

Mursilis
06-19-2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Don't forget they also make you sign the sticker once its on the bottle confirming that everything on the sticker is 100% correct. At least they do in the MEPS station in Beckley, WV.

They do at every MEPS, every duty station, everywhere. The sample has to be able to withstand a chain of custody examination to exclude the possibility of tampering. Hopefully Don_Vito will show up and shed some light on this. Like how many guys use the false positive defense and win, how many guys use the "somebody must have slipped it into my drink" defense and win. It has been my experience that the answer to both of those questions is none.
But hey you live long enough and you get to see everything.

I had to go through MEPS (the one between Baltimore and Washington DC) four times (long story) in the early 90's, and I don't remember that level of care in handling urine samples - certainly no 'escort' or anyone watching you fill the bottle, as glenn1 describes. As I remember, they handed a bunch of us prospective recruits a bottle each, told us to put our stick from this pre-printed sheet on the bottle, and to fill the bottle. After filling it, we just placed it on a shelf where a very bored med tech later retrieved it. Lots of room for error. I'm surprised Andrew111 isn't at least being offered the opportunity to be retested.

UltraQuiet
06-19-2002, 09:09 PM
concur with Glenn: if you tested positive for BZ (the cocaine metabolite found in urine), you almost certainly HAVE been exposed to cocaine.

The briefing I received at the Jacksonville, FL drug lab told us there was only one way for someone to come up positive for the level they tested for. One way and one way only.

Andrew111
06-19-2002, 09:12 PM
The time between the test and the last medication I've taken is well into two months difference. I did get sick the day after going to MEPS, but I highly doubt I accidentally ate something that had cocaine in it. I don't think mom would use cocaine to season her food, and the only thing I ate the day before the test was a bowl of Crispix, Mountain Dew, and the meal they feed you at the hotel near MEPS. It was pepper steak, and that didn't look suspicious either. On the day I went in for testing, I hadn't eaten a single thing before taking the test. Not even water.

glenn1
06-19-2002, 09:13 PM
I had to go through MEPS (the one between Baltimore and Washington DC) four times (long story) in the early 90's, and I don't remember that level of care in handling urine samples - certainly no 'escort' or anyone watching you fill the bottle, as glenn1 describes.

I can't state definitively what goes on at a MEPS station, as i've never been assigned to one. I'm speaking strictly of my experiences in active duty service as a member of a line combat unit, and occassional holder of the additional duty affectionately known as the "pecker checker" (urinanalysis control officer).

BTW, here's a quick link to the UCMJ article i spoke of earlier... UCMJ Article 112a, Wrongful use, possession, etc., of controlled substances (http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl112a.htm)

rahvin
06-19-2002, 09:28 PM
There are quite a few prescription drugs derived from cocaine, tylenol with codine, hydrocodone, etc. Don't know if they test as cocaine but I'm sure some would.

Mursilis
06-19-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by: glenn1

I had to go through MEPS (the one between Baltimore and Washington DC) four times (long story) in the early 90's, and I don't remember that level of care in handling urine samples - certainly no 'escort' or anyone watching you fill the bottle, as glenn1 describes.

I can't state definitively what goes on at a MEPS station, as i've never been assigned to one. I'm speaking strictly of my experiences in active duty service as a member of a line combat unit, and occassional holder of the additional duty affectionately known as the "pecker checker" (urinanalysis control officer).

BTW, here's a quick link to the UCMJ article i spoke of earlier... UCMJ Article 112a, Wrongful use, possession, etc., of controlled substances (http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl112a.htm)

I don't doubt what you say, but it wouldn't surprise me to see different levels of testing for mere recruits (who will be denied admission to the services, but probably won't face criminal prosecution) and current active duty troops (who WILL likely face criminal prosecution if found positive). For one thing, because there's no legal 'right' to enlist, a drug test for enlistment purposes will never face scrutiny by any court, so where's the incentive to meet chain of custody requirements, etc.?

Found some interesting discussion regarding the prosecution of urinalysis cases in the military, if anyone's interested.

JAG training materials from August 2001 (http://www.jagcnet.army.mil/JAGCNETInternet/Homepages/AC/TJAGSAWeb.nsf/8f7edfd448e0ec6c8525694b0064ba51/fb38698fbd336b2e85256b270072c597/$FILE/Tab%20C.pdf)

charrison
06-19-2002, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by: rahvin
There are quite a few prescription drugs derived from cocaine, tylenol with codine, hydrocodone, etc. Don't know if they test as cocaine but I'm sure some would.

They do not.

UltraQuiet
06-19-2002, 09:37 PM
According to the labs over the counter meds will not cause a positive. Drugs (http://There are quite a few prescription drugs derived from cocaine, tylenol with codine, hydrocodone, etc. Don't know if they test as cocaine but I'm sure some would) According to my briefing ingestion of cocaine will not cause a positive.

OutHouse
06-19-2002, 10:03 PM
I have never used a illegal drug in my life. Every month the Air Force would do the random piss test. I got the be the lucky winner quite a few times and i would get very paranoid of a false positive result. I saw what happend to the guys who got nailed that really did smoke pot ect... (why they did it is beyond me) and the horror of that happening to me when i had never used them scared the hell out of me.

If my test ever did come back positive, i wouldnt have a leg to stand on to prove my inncence.

glenn1
06-19-2002, 10:25 PM
If my test ever did come back positive, i wouldnt have a leg to stand on to prove my inncence.

If you didn't actually DO drugs, why were you worried about testing positive? That's like you being male and worried about coming up positive on a pregnancy test.


Hehe... here's the defense which was raised by another servicemember who was (obviously) erroneously identified positive and subsequently framed as have thousands of others...

"United States v. Montijo, No 30385, (AFCMR 28 Jun 1994)

Government was not required to establish chain of custody for sample bottle from the time of its manufacture until its use. "

The obvious defense of an innocent man. i/expressions/rolleye.gif

rahvin
06-19-2002, 11:10 PM
I really don't believe that prescription narcotic pain killers wouldn't test as illegal substances. Codine is cocaine based, it should be metabolized just like the more natural componet, just as an injection of morphine would give a positive for opiates (and would be refered to has herion on the test result. When you are testing for a metabolized component then the test will be inherintly unaccurate when it comes to identifying the exact substance in the body. This is the very reason it's been warned that eating an excessive amount of poppy seeds (say in a muffin) would test as opiates, because they rely on a test for a metabolized componet rather than the substance itself.

burnedout
06-19-2002, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by: Citrix
I have never used a illegal drug in my life. Every month the Air Force would do the random piss test. I got the be the lucky winner quite a few times and i would get very paranoid of a false positive result. I saw what happend to the guys who got nailed that really did smoke pot ect... (why they did it is beyond me) and the horror of that happening to me when i had never used them scared the hell out of me.

If my test ever did come back positive, i wouldnt have a leg to stand on to prove my inncence.

Heh. Yeah, I worried about every urinalysis I took. Especially the ones just before retirement.

I watched the entire process evolve over a 20 year period. Like in 1982, they herded my whole battalion into the field house at Fort Campbell shortly before we shipped out to the Sinai. This drug and alcohol professor takes the podium and says "You are all going to an area with some of the highest concentrations of hashish in the world". Almost everyone there starts screaming "Yeah Baby!" "Wooo Hooo!" Then the professor shakes his head and steps back up to the podium saying "Don't worry, we'll catch you". All of a sudden, all the doors slam with MPs blocking the exits. Like something out of a movie. Everybody tested that day.

So, we arrive back from the Sinai and continue with the whiz quiz. Back then, the observer wasn't too attentive as there was still a lackadasical attitude towards testing from an NCO standpoint. A buddy of mine stashed some bleach in his trousers in a medicine bottle. Another soldier said "Hey Sergeant So-and-so, look here". Sergeant So-and-so turns his head, leaves the latrine and the bleach is mixed in with a little toilet water. The result came back as "unknown substance". Nothing ever happened to my buddy except he had to retake the test.

Even soldiers who tested positive in those days received just a slap on the wrist. Sergeants and Staff Sergeants received Summary Article 15s. The Army started becoming very serious about drugs in '84. In '86, there were quite a few drug tests overturned because of faults found in the testing procedures. Those soldiers were allowed back in, or received their old rank back. Afterwards, they tightened up even more. Lots of NCOs and Officers with a number of years in fought all the way to Court Martial and lost.

While I recruited, we had an NCO Professional Development about drug testing at MEPS. The First Sergeant and CO conveniently leave the room. "Hey Top, we got things to take care of at the company." Yeah right. This recruiter gives a presentation about water, Golden Seal and other supposed methods that potentially "hot" applicants should use. He passes around a copy of "High Times" with all of these methods. I wouldn't say those methods were effective based on the number of applicants our company lost for positive results during the year. We had one applicant come up positive twice in 6 months for pot. After the second positive, he was DQ'd for two years.

Mill
06-19-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by: rahvin
There are quite a few prescription drugs derived from cocaine, tylenol with codine, hydrocodone, etc. Don't know if they test as cocaine but I'm sure some would.


Those are opiate based drugs in a class called narcotic analgesics. They do not contain cocaine nor are they derived from cocaine. They are based off of opium poppies. Hydrocodone/Hydrocodeine are semi-synthetic analgesics. Codeine is based off of poppies or morphine.


One of the questions I must ask you is if you have been to the dentist or had ANY type of surgery lately? Sometimes althought very rarely cocaine is used a Local Anesthetic for dental work or some types of surgery. If you have had any dental work(i.e. cavity filled, root canal, tooth pulled,etc) or ANY type of surgery talk to your dentist or doctor immediatley and ask them if they used Cocaine HCL as an Anesthetic.

Have you been to any foreign countries lately? If so please list them. Coca leaves are still used in some areas of the world for whatever reason.

You need to immediately have three indepedent labs test you. Then you need to contact your congressman if the results show you are negative. If you really haven't ever used cocaine, them I am betting it was either a testing error(broken chain of custody or mislabeling) or the cocaine used as an Anesthetic.

Mill
06-19-2002, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by: rahvin
I really don't believe that prescription narcotic pain killers wouldn't test as illegal substances. Codine is cocaine based, it should be metabolized just like the more natural componet, just as an injection of morphine would give a positive for opiates (and would be refered to has herion on the test result. When you are testing for a metabolized component then the test will be inherintly unaccurate when it comes to identifying the exact substance in the body. This is the very reason it's been warned that eating an excessive amount of poppy seeds (say in a muffin) would test as opiates, because they rely on a test for a metabolized componet rather than the substance itself.


Once again codeine is NOT cocaine based.

Codeine is an alkaloid obtained from opium or prepared from morphine by methylation and occurs as white crystals. Codeine effloresces slowly in dry air and is effected by light. The chemical name of codeine phosphate is 7,8-Didehydro-4,5alpha-epoxy-3-methoxy-17-methylmorphinan-6alpha-ol phosphate (1:1)(salt) hemihydrate and has the empirical formula of C18H21NO3H3PO41/2H20. Its molecular weight is 406.4.

glenn1
06-19-2002, 11:31 PM
Codeine is an alkaloid obtained from opium or prepared from morphine by methylation and occurs as white crystals. Codeine effloresces slowly in dry air and is effected by light. The chemical name of codeine phosphate is 7,8-Didehydro-4,5alpha-epoxy-3-methoxy-17-methylmorphinan-6alpha-ol phosphate (1:1)(salt) hemihydrate and has the empirical formula of C18H21NO3H3PO41/2H20. Its molecular weight is 406.4.



Then you need to contact your congressman if the results show you are negative. If you really haven't ever used cocaine, them I am betting it was either a testing error(broken chain of custody or mislabeling) or the cocaine used as an Anesthetic.

Thanks for the advanced chemistry info. However, even if he does get another test (or two or three) i highly doubt his elected representative will intervene on his behalf to gain him entry into the armed services. If he was facing prosecution, perhaps, but not for simple enlistment. In today's world, with the MOS he selected, i highly doubt his security clearance would be approved. Look at it from the POV of the lead investigator on his clearance, in the post 9-11 world, would you want to be the agent who cleared a guy who already failed one drug test?

I feel bad for the guy, and hope he really is clean, but i wouldn't want to serve with him. I don't want the risk of someone who might be whacked on blow watching my back when i'm out on a patrol, and it doesn't matter to me how loudly he proclaims his innocence. Would you support the idea of the military not employing a zero-tolerance stance in the case of, say, a USAF nuclear missile silo launch control officer? Would you give him the benefit of the doubt that no, he really isn't taking smack when his piss test comes back hot?

Mill
06-19-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by: glenn1

Codeine is an alkaloid obtained from opium or prepared from morphine by methylation and occurs as white crystals. Codeine effloresces slowly in dry air and is effected by light. The chemical name of codeine phosphate is 7,8-Didehydro-4,5alpha-epoxy-3-methoxy-17-methylmorphinan-6alpha-ol phosphate (1:1)(salt) hemihydrate and has the empirical formula of C18H21NO3H3PO41/2H20. Its molecular weight is 406.4.



Then you need to contact your congressman if the results show you are negative. If you really haven't ever used cocaine, them I am betting it was either a testing error(broken chain of custody or mislabeling) or the cocaine used as an Anesthetic.

Thanks for the advanced chemistry info. However, even if he does get another test (or two or three) i highly doubt his elected representative will intervene on his behalf to gain him entry into the armed services. If he was facing prosecution, perhaps, but not for simple enlistment. In today's world, with the MOS he selected, i highly doubt his security clearance would be approved. Look at it from the POV of the lead investigator on his clearance, in the post 9-11 world, would you want to be the agent who cleared a guy who already failed one drug test?

I feel bad for the guy, and hope he really is clean, but i wouldn't want to serve with him. I don't want the risk of someone who might be whacked on blow watching my back when i'm out on a patrol, and it doesn't matter to me how loudly he proclaims his innocence. Would you support the idea of the military not employing a zero-tolerance stance in the case of, say, a USAF nuclear missile silo launch control officer? Would you give him the benefit of the doubt that no, he really isn't taking smack when his piss test comes back hot?


Exactly he is pretty much screwed unless his congressman can make some magic happen. Cocaine is not a drug that you fail on and you get an aww shucks type reaction. It is insane how much trouble that drug causes/has caused. I am reading the book "Cocaine" right now. It is a biography of cocaine back from Incan days to now. It covers Freud, Coca-Cola, Health tonics, the prohibition, racism, the Conquistadors that conquered South America. It also coversi ts history of Cuban, German, British, French, Japanese, American, Russian, etc smuggling, abuse and prohibtion of the drug. One of the most interesting books I have read and I am only half through it.

CocaCola5
06-19-2002, 11:40 PM
One has to say that human error is always a potential possibility. It seems really harsh to not allow a second test imo.

CocaCola5
06-19-2002, 11:46 PM
On second though, to waste say 20,000 tests to catch one bad one in this situation is probably not worth it from their view.
Sorry, but I'll have to side with the Army here.

SuperTool
06-19-2002, 11:51 PM
In case you are wondering where to get your independent drug test:
Labcorp (http://www.labcorp.com/ots/)
At least they are the ones who tested my urine for jobs. They have patient service centers in many locations (usually hospitals) who are authorized to collect samples fo labcorp.

As far as my opinion on the matter, I am agnostic. But if chances are 1 in 1000000 that there is a false positive, and you just happen to get it, maybe it's a higher being telling you not to go into the Army? I really don't see what's so great about an Army job. I know the economy sucks, but you can do a lot better. I think that you fulfilled your patriotic obligation by trying to sign up for the Army. If they don't want you, it's their business. Kinda like jury duty.

Tripleshot
06-20-2002, 12:05 AM
If you thought a computer career in the Army was being served up to you, and then magically and iresponsibly pulled away for a piss test, you are nieve. You applied for a career that has many facets, none of which are less compelling then a full FBI background check where the government knows more about you than your mother. The army would send you to Fort Huachuca, Sierra Vista, Arizona where you would probably wish you were on drugs by the time you where 1/2 way through your hitch.

It could be that your failed piss test is a cover for a derogatory from the background investigation. You may have caught a break. Now you can enlist in another branch of the service, or better yet, get a government job fixing the FBI's F*** UP computers, or maybe the IRS.

You really didn't want Ft. Huachuca, trust me. ;)

tcsenter
06-20-2002, 01:40 AM
Laboratories and companies who produce drug-testing products NEVER admit their tests are wrong. Gleaned from a couple sources, I have the text on my hard drive but I forgot where I got the info.

---------------

Antibiotics Cause False Positives on Heroin Test

By Emma Hitt, PhD

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Athletes and hopeful job applicants often hinge their careers on a clean drug test, but the use of certain antibiotics may cause an unsuspecting person to test positive for heroin even though they've never touched the drug, according to study findings released Tuesday.

Researchers led by Dr. Lindsey R. Baden of Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, investigated this problem after they came across a patient in their practice who tested positive for opiates, and who was also taking an antibiotic called levofloxacin. The patient was nearly kicked out from a drug treatment center because of the result, which later proved to be false.

Opiates are a class of drugs that include the illegal drug heroin, and several other controlled drugs such as methadone, morphine, Demerol and codeine.

In their study, Baden and colleagues tested 13 different types of antibiotics, including levofloxacin and Cipro, all belonging to a class of chemicals called quinolones, to see what effect they would have on commercial opiate tests.

The researchers diluted the antibiotics to concentrations that would be expected to occur in urine and then tested the antibiotic samples using five different commercial tests to see if they would cause a positive result for opiates.

Two antibiotics, levofloxacin and ofloxacin, caused a strong positive result on four of the five tests.

Most of the other antibiotics also caused a positive result on at least two or three of the five tests. For example, Cipro, the drug given to thousands of people to fight possible anthrax exposure, resulted in a positive test in one out of the five tests.

To confirm these results in people, they had six people take a standard dose of one of the two antibiotics and collected their urine samples every 6 hours for the next 48 hours.

On one of the five tests, all three patients taking levofloxacin tested falsely positive within 2 hours and up to 22 hours after taking the drug. The results were similar in patients taking ofloxacin, the investigators report in the December 26th issue of The Journal of the American Medical Association.

Baden told Reuters Health that he suspects that the false positives result from the similar three-dimensional structures of opiates and the antibiotics. He also pointed out that other types of chemicals could cause a similar reaction.

According to Baden, it is possible that people have suffered consequences of a false positive test, because ``a positive drug test is often assumed true, while the protestations of the person being tested are looked at as self-serving.''

Baden recommends that anyone who tests falsely positive for opiates ask to have drug testing performed to confirm the result.

SOURCE: The Journal of the American Medical Association 2001;286:3115

---------------------------------------

April 16, 1998

By Lynn Hicks - Register Business Writer

DRUG TESTS BRING WORRIES OF ACCURACY

"I go to extraordinary lengths before I call a positive."?Dr. David

Berg, Medical review officer

The water-cooler talk is true: Poppy seeds can produce a positive test for heroin, and cold medicine can suggest methamphetamine.

But medical experts say workers have little to worry about as changes in Iowa?s drug-testing law go into effect today.

That?s because the new law requires medical review officers to evaluate drug tests. They act as judges, determining whether the positive test is a result of illegal drug use or a legitimate medical cause.

"I?m there to protect people from false positives as much as I?m there to find drug (evidence) for their employers," said Dr. David Berg, an MRO and director of occupational medicine for the Des Moines office of HealthSouth. "I go to extraordinary lengths before I call a positive."

Accuracy is a concern as private-sector employers gain more power to test employees for drugs and alcohol. Occupational health clinics and laboratories say the law could lead to more business, but they don?t expect a rush starting today.

Business groups have been pushing for a change for years, and some construction companies and other safety-sensitive employers are moving quickly to start testing, said James Aipperspach, president of the Iowa Association of Business and Industry. But most are still learning about the changes and deciding what options to take.

Employers are not required to test. They could randomly test workers for alcohol and other drugs. They could test if they have reasonable suspicion that a worker is under the influence. They could require workers to get treatment after a confirmed positive drug test, or they could fire them. Critics say the law gives employers more power than police. They also question the reliability of testing, and say the workers would have little recourse if they falsely test positive.

The new law protects employers from liability unless they clearly should have known a false positive test result was in error and ignored the correct test result.

The Iowa Civil Liberties Union isn?t saying whether it will fight the law. But lawyers and legislators have talked to the group about a challenge, said executive director Ben Stone.

Random testing could result in more false positives, said Craig Zwerling, a University of Iowa professor and expert on drug-testing.

Statistics vary widely on the likelihood of false positives, depending on the test and the lab. Civil libertarians say 5 percent is a conservative estimate.

Medical experts acknowledge that false positives aren?t impossible. But they say urinalysis, the most common means of drug testing, has improved.

The Iowa Methodist Medical Center laboratory?s testing is more than 99 percent reliable, said Rich Snyder, who supervises drug testing.

The lab uses a combination of gas chromatography and mass spectrometry, which is considered by most experts to be the most precise procedure for the detection of banned substances. The new Iowa law requires such a technique to be used to confirm positive tests.

Employees can request a second confirmatory test at another lab, at their expense. If that test comes back negative, the employer must reimburse the employee.

But tests still read some innocuous substances as illegal drugs. Because of the poppy seed problem, the federal government is raising the threshold for the detection of opiates in urine. Additional tests can be done to determine whether a Vicks inhaler is causing a methamphetamine positive, experts say.

Medical review officers also look at more than the test, searching for evidence of needle tracks or asking whether the person is on a prescription drug.

Testers also watch for adulterated samples. An industry is booming on the Internet, providing drug users with tips and products to taint their tests. Snyder said most of the methods, such as mixing the urine with bleach or soap, are easy to catch.

Medical review officers also are on guard for every excuse imaginable. They?ve heard them all, including the one gold-medal snowboarder Ross Rebagliati gave when he tested positive during the Olympics. Second-hand marijuana smoke will produce a positive test only in extreme cases, research has shown.

"There?s no way," Berg scoffed.

--------------------

Among the items reported as causing false positive test results are:

Pain relievers such as Advil, Nuprin, Motrin and menstrual cramp medications like Midol and Trendar. All drugs containing the widely used pain reliever Ibuprofen are known to cause positive samples for Marijuana. Non-steroidal anti inflammatories such as Naproxyn have cross reacted in blind tests. These are often prescribed for runners, sports injuries to joints, and those suffering from arthritis.

Syva labs has recently reworked its Cannabinoid test and claims to have eliminated this problem. But a Science magazine article (July 8, 1988) lists Ibuprofen as cross reactive. Under the new government guidelines THC testing levels will be reduced to 50 nanograms. Many more THC false positives can be expected in 1994.

Dristan Nasal Spray, Neosynephren, Vicks Nasal Spray, Sudafed, etc. and others containing ephedrine or pnenypropanolamine. Over the counter appetite suppressants which contain propanolamine. Most common nasal decongestants can cause a positive reading for Amphetamines. As the cross reactive list suggests at the back of this booklet, amphetamine false positives are the most common. Recent articles in the Journal of Clinical Chemistry ,Vol. 38 No.12 1992 and Vol. 39 No.3 1993 warn that medications containing chloropromazine, fluspirilene, and others may yield a positive when tested for amphetamines.

Vicks Formula 44M containing Dextromethorphan, and Primatene-M containing perylamine as well as the pain reliever Demerol, and prescription anti-depressant Elavil test positive for opiates up to three days. Even Quinine water can also cause a positive reading for opiates.

Poppy Seeds such as the ones on a bagel from your favorite deli, etc. The journal of Clinical Chemistry Vol.33 No.6, 1987 reports: "the quantities of poppy seed ingested in this study (25 and 40 g) may be expected to be contained in one or two servings of poppy seed cake. Therefore, poppy seeds represent a potentially serious source of falsely positive results in testing opiate abuse." Clinical Chemistry goes on to conclude: Not only is it difficult to distinguish heroin or morphine abuse from codeine, but dietary poppy seeds can give a strong positive result for urinary opiate of several days duration that is confirmed by GC/MS analysis".

Nyquil Nighttime Cold Medicine will test positive for Methadone up to two days.

Antibiotics. Certain newly developed antibiotics have cause positive samples urine tests. Ampicillin is suspect. Amoxicillin has caused positives for cocaine.

Diazepam tests positive for PCP as well as the ingredient in some cough medicines, Dextromethorophan.

Your own enzymes. A small fraction of the population excrete large amounts of certain enzymes in their urine which can produce a positive drug test. Dr. John Morgan of the Dept. of Pharmacology of New York City University writes: "A false positive test could occur in some individuals because they excrete unusually large amounts of endogenons lysozyme or malate dehydrogenase." Dr. Morgan judges that natural enzyme interference may run as high as 10% of positive samples.

Black Skin. This is not a joke! Those of African origin, certain Orientals, or pacific Islanders might test positive for marijuana. Dr. James Woodford, a toxicologist associated with Emory University labs hypothesized the pigment melanin which protects the skin from the sun, approximates the molecular structure of the THC metabolite to cross react on the marijuana urine test. Dark skinned Caucasians such as those from the subcontinent of India could also read positive on marijuana tests. The body eliminates some melanin in a dark person's urine sample.

Passive marijuana inhalation. If you attend a rock concert or ride in a car where marijuana is smoked nearby, even if you do not partake, the second hand marijuana that you might inhale may give your test a positive result for several days.

Renal impairment or nephritis (kidney infection) have been indicated in false positive results for cocaine.

Mill
06-21-2002, 12:05 AM
So what is your update?

Andrew111
06-21-2002, 07:34 PM
I arranged to do a urinalysis immediately.....I took it yesterday and the results came back today.....negative like I expected. I took that urinalysis less than 24 hours after the Army told me I showed positive for cocaine. If I had been stupid enough to do cocaine before going to MEPS(I knew I was going there a week in advance), wouldn't you assume I'd have to be a crackhead or whatever you call an addicted cocaine user. Since it showed negative and I had less than 24 hours notice that I was going to take a urinalysis, this will make my case better.

Mrburns2007
06-21-2002, 10:29 PM
Geez they can't catch Osama how do you expect them to give an accurate test.

Mill
06-22-2002, 10:51 PM
What about the surgery or dental aspect of it. Did you read the questions I asked you?

Yossarian451
06-22-2002, 11:42 PM
If you read glen1's article you notice under its definition:
A) Possession must be knowing and conscious.
and
B) Knowledge of the presence of the controlled substance is a required component of use.

SO, try your hardest to prove both you are clean and unknowing

Andrew111
06-22-2002, 11:59 PM
Never had surgery and I haven't been to the dentist for a long time. Right now I'm in the process of gathering statements from established members of the community that I know to strengthen my case. I got in touch with most of my teachers at my high school, they all know I wouldn't do illegal drugs and they are writing statements on my behalf.......I got mostly As in my classes, a few Bs, and one C. I was also nominated for Who's Who Among American High School Students last year as well.........My academic acheivements should definitely help me out.

Anyone know how much it costs to do a drug test that uses a hair sample? If I need more fire power I may have to fork over the dough to do one of those tests. My recruiter told me that type of test would be very expensive......I shouldn't have to spend hundreds of dollars because of a mistake on their end.

Aceman
06-23-2002, 12:10 AM
Wait a second......

They asked you "xxx-xx-xxxx. Is this your SSN?" It wasn't and you signed the bottle anyways? Sorry, you're own fault if your sample got mixed up. I have rarely seen that happen in the 10 years I've been a Alcohol and Drug Demand Reduction Officer (Fancy title for Army Drug Tester.) Codeine can cause a false positive, but unlikely.

Obviously, from what you're saying, the bottles got mixed up. I've never seen that happen as YOU carry the bottle to AND from the latrine. The tester then takes your bottle (which already has the sticker with your info on it) and asks you if that is your sample and then puts tape on it and takes custody of the specimen. Here is the exact steps to a urinalysis:

a) Tested individual hands the test administrator an ID and states his SSN
b) The SSN is recorded on a label and the chain of custody documents.
c) The test admin places the label on the bottle and has the tesed individual VERIFY that the SSN is correct.
d) The individual takes custody of the bottle and wizzes in the bottle while an observer watches.
e) The indivual caps the bottle and returns back to the test admin under the watchful eye of the observer.
f) The test admin takes the bottle asks "Is this your specimen?" , initials and then puts a piece of tamper resistient tape over the bottle lid.

If the specimen comes up positive, two more tests are conducted on that specimen. If it comes up negative in either test, the sample is thrown out and comes back to the unit as a "dump".

A Congressional will not reverse a decision based on your ignorance and stupidity of a mixed up bottle.

I have no remorse, sorrow or pity on the stupid or ignorant when it comes to a drug test. I have submitted approximately 150 samples on myself through the military for drug tests. NEVER have I come up hot or a false positive. Your chances that it's a false positive are very slim.

Andrew111
06-23-2002, 11:58 AM
That was the first urinalysis I've ever taken so I didn't know what the correct procedures were......and if you would have read my other reply on the first page, I told them it was the wrong SSN, and they gave me my correct paperwork after that. I didn't think they would mix up the containers, and since I corrected him about my SSN.....THEY should make the steps to make sure they didn't mix up the containers. I was only instructed to sign a form, I was never instructed to sign the actual container.

Since you don't know everything that happened Aceman, you shouldn't act like such an a$$.

charrison
06-23-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by: Andrew111
That was the first urinalysis I've ever taken so I didn't know what the correct procedures were......and if you would have read my other reply on the first page, I told them it was the wrong SSN, and they gave me my correct paperwork after that. I didn't think they would mix up the containers, and since I corrected him about my SSN.....THEY should make the steps to make sure they didn't mix up the containers. I was only instructed to sign a form, I was never instructed to sign the actual container.

Since you don't know everything that happened Aceman, you shouldn't act like such an a$$.


Why dont you have a lawyer try to get the container. If it does not have your signature on it, they screwed up the procedures on obtaining the sample. This may be the only chance you have, along with a hair sample test. The military has a zero tolerance rules for a reason.

Andrew111
06-23-2002, 01:08 PM
Are you sure it's still a requirement to sign the container? My recruiter wasn't sure, but he said it may not be required anymore. It may be possible that the only identification used on the container is a sticker with your SSN on it, but my recruiter couldn't tell me for a fact that they did need more than that. We were instructed to put our initials on the stickers before we did any tests, by the way.

charrison
06-23-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by: Andrew111
Are you sure it's still a requirement to sign the container? My recruiter wasn't sure, but he said it may not be required anymore. It may be possible that the only identification used on the container is a sticker with your SSN on it, but my recruiter couldn't tell me for a fact that they did need more than that. We were instructed to put our initials on the stickers before we did any tests, by the way.



Acemans above post looks alot like how the Air Force does its testing.

Andrew111
06-23-2002, 01:33 PM
Are those procedures mandatory for all branches of the military? They didn't care which branch of the military you were going into, they did the urinalysis the same exact way for everybody, from what I could tell. We grabbed a container at random from a box and did our business. No identification was placed on the container until you place it on the counter. I tried to wash my hands right after putting it on the counter, almost did it too before the guy told me I need to look at the container and sign the form first. I had already lost eye contact with the container for a few seconds before he said that. I wasn't struck with fear that they may have mixed up the containers, it's not like they were scratching their heads looking at two containers:P

DCFife
06-23-2002, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
That's pretty funny. I didn't know they started using Chairborne Rangers in Combat Arms.


You got a problem with Chairbornes??? ;)



<------------ Chairborne since 1997...and enjoying it!

bugsysiegel
06-23-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by: Xerox Man

Originally posted by: Atrail
Call your local Congressman and make your case!

I would pay to have yourself tested for drugs first. If you've got a paper in hand from a reputable company saying you are clean, you will be able to make your case more easily.


Good plan! Never hurts to have some legit proof on your side. And do the test quick, so the army can't claim you waited for the drugs to exit your system before going in for the private test.

Aceman
06-23-2002, 03:44 PM
That was the first urinalysis I've ever taken so I didn't know what the correct procedures were......and if you would have read my other reply on the first page, I told them it was the wrong SSN, and they gave me my correct paperwork after that. I didn't think they would mix up the containers, and since I corrected him about my SSN.....THEY should make the steps to make sure they didn't mix up the containers. I was only instructed to sign a form, I was never instructed to sign the actual container.

You don't sign a container. You INITIAL the specimen bottle and sign a form (Used universally by all branches of the military) with your SSN by it. The SSN on the bottle and the form should match. Your initials are verification that the SSN on both are indeed your SSN. The military explains thing in a 3rd grade level. Ignorance is no excuse.


If that full specimen container had a wrong SSN on it there is no correction paperwork. THE BOTTLE IS DUMPED AND A NEW SPECIMEN DRAWN! Look, don't tell me I don't know the full situation! I've been doing piss tests and counseling addicts for 10 years! We haven't deviated from the procedure to any real extent in 10 years!

And another thing........

"then a few days later I get a call from my recruiter. He says he has bad news and tells me I tested positive for cocaine in the urinalysis."

How many days is a FEW DAYS? Except for a Command Directed uninalysis for alcohol, ALL results are sent FEDEX 3 day to ONE testing facility in the Army. It then takes them about 3-5 days to run the tests. Then if you come up positive, the testing center calls through a chain of command to get a hold of you and/or your doctor to find out if there were any legal prescriptions given. If there was a legal prescription given they check the results and see if the prescription caused the test to be positive. A normal time frame for a positive to come back as 100% positive illegal drug uses is a minimum of 10-14 days.

In my honest and professional opinion, you don't have a leg to stand on and your story has way too many holes in it for me!

eLiTeGoodGuy
06-23-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by: Andrew111
Are you sure it's still a requirement to sign the container? My recruiter wasn't sure, but he said it may not be required anymore. It may be possible that the only identification used on the container is a sticker with your SSN on it, but my recruiter couldn't tell me for a fact that they did need more than that. We were instructed to put our initials on the stickers before we did any tests, by the way.

My roomate had to sign the bottle to join the marines, and that was just a few weeks ago.

Andrew111
06-23-2002, 04:06 PM
Like I said, they told us to initial the sticker with our SSN before we did ANY tests. The only thing I had to sign when doing the urinalysis was a form. I wasn't told to put my initials on anything while doing the urinalysis, unless you are supposed to initial the form; I'm sorry but I don't remember if they asked me to initial or sign the form:P

I was upset that they make you use the same exact pen others used before you...and you know they weren't allowed to wash their hands beforehand. For obvious reasons, I was rushing to get through with that form to wash my hands.

Aceman
06-23-2002, 04:15 PM
Like I said, they told us to initial the sticker with our SSN before we did ANY tests

Okay, so you initialed the sticker with the wrong SSN? You're still at fault. The Army didn't screw up, you did. So you also say that you told them the SSN was wrong? I GUARANTEE you that they would immediately print out a new sticker with the RIGHT SSN and have you verify that it now had the RIGHT SSN.


I was upset that they make you use the same exact pen others used before you...and you know they weren't allowed to wash their hands beforehand. For obvious reasons, I was rushing to get through with that form to wash my hands.

i/expressions/rolleye.gif LMAO! Son, what are you going to do when you hit the field for a deployment! i/expressions/rolleye.gif

You still didn't answer how many days a FEW days were.........

burnedout
06-23-2002, 04:16 PM
Adding to Aceman's description, if I'm not mistaken, I believe the observer also initials the label on the specimen bottle as well. My biggest concern was always the chain of custody. Therefore, I made sure that was my specimen with my SSN when banded.

Aceman
06-23-2002, 04:19 PM
burnedout,
They just changed the observer requirement 2 months ago in the Army. The Observers got upset over using the same pen that the tested individuals used to initial the bottle. :D

Andrew111
06-23-2002, 04:23 PM
Okay, so you initialed the sticker with the wrong SSN?
It was the correct SSN. If you would have done some thinking, you might have figured out that I'm trying to point out that since the sticker already had my initials, it would be easier for them to mix up containers and put it on the wrong one. I was never shown the sticker on the container they told me to look at, so I don't know if the correct sticker was on it.

Andrew111
06-23-2002, 04:29 PM
I did the urinalysis June 11th and got the phone call June 19th.

Aceman
06-23-2002, 04:32 PM
I was never shown the sticker on the container they told me to look at, so I don't know if the correct sticker was on it.

The sticker goes on the specimen bottle BEFORE you take possession of the bottle to fill it. NEVER, EVER is the sticker put on the bottle AFTER you fill it. NO tester would even try to stick a label on AFTER the specimen is given. So therefore, if you do a Congressional, the Congressman's office is going to call out to MEPS, ask the tester to tell them step by step the procedures. the Tester is going to say that the specimen battle had the sticker on it BEFORE the sample was given. That it is the tested individual's responsibility when asked if that was his/her specimen and to verify the SSN. The Congressmans office will call you and say, SORRY! Case closed.

10 years and I have seen ZERO people that came up hot get off on a techicality like you described.

Andrew111
06-23-2002, 04:42 PM
I know for a fact their was no identification on mine until after I placed it on the counter after doing my business..........same for the other people who did the test at the same time I did. We grabbed a container out of a box full of them, simple as that.

Aceman
06-23-2002, 04:43 PM
I did the urinalysis June 11th and got the phone call June 19th.

So that would mean that the testing facility in Maryland got the shipment probably Friday, June 14. God knows that they aren't just going to get to it that Friday. They're running behind with the 100% testing requirements this year. So they might have gotten to it on Monday, June 17th. So on June 17th, your sample comes up hot. They will retest the sample maybe the same day. (Probably in a day or so) It comes up hot again. They will carefully analyze both positives. With the military, this process will take more than just 1 day. They then will call the chain of command to ask about prescriptions on the individual. Big hole in your timeline! I ain't buying it even if you put a buy one account with cyberwings.com and get 5 accounts free with triple storage space with that story:Q:)

burnedout
06-23-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by: Aceman
burnedout,
They just changed the observer requirement 2 months ago in the Army. The Observers got upset over using the same pen that the tested individuals used to initial the bottle. :D

LOL. OK, my bad. Guess this younger generation is getting soft on us. Don't know about getting their hands dirty! ;)

Here is useful method I used when playing 1SG. You know how a company of troops requires about 2-4 hours in the mornings just to take the test? Give the test in the afternoon! Around 1500. Guaranteed a 100 man company finishes before 1730. We did that a couple of times. Don't know if it's legal, but ADAPC never said anything negative to my CO about it. :) You just gotta make sure someone is over at ADAPC to sign for the specimens.

A buddy of mine, who was 1SG in another company, stored the specimens in the arms room overnight. ADAPC threw everyone of them out when finally delivered. Stated there was a chain of custody violation because the specimens were unsupervised in the arms room even though the CQ desk was right next to the arms room door.

Andrew111
06-23-2002, 04:48 PM
You're saying it 100% positively has to take longer than that? My recruiter met me at MEPS, I know it was June 11th. I also know I got the phone call June 19th because the following day I immediately had another urinalysis done. I double-checked the test results and sure enough, I had to have gotten the phone call June 19th.

Mister T
06-23-2002, 05:09 PM
you should get a hair test and/or blood test as well...

mastertech01
06-23-2002, 09:10 PM
<<I know for a fact their was no identification on mine until after I placed it on the counter after doing my business..........same for the other people who did the test at the same time I did. We grabbed a container out of a box full of them, simple as that. >>

If you could get statements from others who were tested that day at that MEPS station to that effect, there be a heap big problem for the testers at that MEPS station.

Ive seen way too many cases of bending the rules in Urinalysis testing over the years to completely discount this person's story. Veterans are wise to the steps, but young kids coming off the streets cant be called dumbasses just because they are unaware of how easily they can be screwed by derelects of duty. IMHO

Andrew111
06-24-2002, 01:44 PM
If you could get statements from others who were tested that day at that MEPS station to that effect, there be a heap big problem for the testers at that MEPS station.
Unfortunately, no one came with me to MEPS from the Dubuque, IA recruiting office, so I don't know how I could contact anyone who took the urinalysis the same day I did.

Staver
06-25-2002, 05:02 AM
A co-worker was taking a drug test to join the police department. One of the questions they asked was if he had eaten any items with Poppy Seeds in them since that also gives a false positive for drugs that are a derivative of that plant. I think cocaine is made from that flower family strain.

tcsenter
06-25-2002, 05:24 AM
The Army didn't screw up, you did. So you also say that you told them the SSN was wrong? I GUARANTEE you that they would immediately print out a new sticker with the RIGHT SSN and have you verify that it now had the RIGHT SSN.This obstinance reminds me of when the IRS is confronted about their giving the wrong tax advice as much as 40% of the time.

Of course, they respond, "We give correct answers every time, its just that some people ask the wrong questions."

Yeah, the military follows policy and procedure to the letter with religous zeal - tell me another!

One of the most common causes of mistakes involve tasks that become so routine, so ingrained and automated, that people begin to take it for granted and their minds tend to wander. They are drilled to mastery: First A, then B, then C. Repeat x 1000. The task no longer requiring thought or concentration, their minds tend to wander, they try to socialize at the same time, or they get sloppy because they feel they can not make a mistake. I've seen it happen to the best.

All members of the military, however, are immune from this common problem, by some Act of Divine Intervention, apparently.

gigapet
06-25-2002, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by: Xerox Man

Originally posted by: Atrail
Call your local Congressman and make your case!

I would pay to have yourself tested for drugs first. If you've got a paper in hand from a reputable company saying you are clean, you will be able to make your case more easily.

if you just found out dont waste any time, instead of just one reputable company go for like three. Its hard to deny 3 negative drug tests to one positive. It will cost you some loot but if your future is important to you i think it iwiill be a good strategic move. While your waiting for the results of your new drug tests do call your congressmen, also you may want to seek legal counsel as they will be able to more properly address your situation and provide you with the best approach to appealing your case.

Don Vito Corleone
06-25-2002, 08:25 AM
All members of the military, however, are immune from this common problem, by some Act of Divine Intervention, apparently.

I think you are speaking out of ignorance.

I am intimately familiar with the Air Force's collection program (I conduct an inspection of our base's program four times a year), and we are incredibly anal about details (appropriately so, since a positive result will virtually always end a member's career, and more often than not will send them to jail). False positives are all but unheard of, and I have never seen a single case of a known false positive (indeed, in every case I have personally seen, there ended up being corroboration for the positive result, usually in the form of a confession).

If you are assuming that the military is swimming with false positives, you are sorely wrong. I remain skeptical whether there was one in this case.

rudder
06-25-2002, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Is that supposed to be funny? Why would I lie on a forum, I'm posting for suggestions on what the hell to do. Do some searching on Google and you'll find others screwed over by drug tests that were inaccurate.

No it's very serious. If I had a nickel for every guy that claimed he got screwed over on a drug test I could retire and never work again. The days of mishandling samples are over. Thing of the past. When you test positive they immediately remove your sample from the batch and test it six ways to Sunday. The odds of you getting a false positive, irregardless of what some malcontents website says, are so astronomical that I have absolutely no compunction at all about making the statement I did. As far as you lying on a forum people lie about everything on a forum, how much money they make, their cars, girlfriends, etc. I couldn't begin to understand why they lie or you.


Chief

But don't forget, the Army uses the lab that was the LOWEST bidder for the contract.

Andrew111, only you know if you did not do drugs. If you had, I don't know why you would bother coming here to cry about it anyway. I would just go to a reputable lab, get retested and call your congressman. They have staff to help their constituents with all sorts of problems.

Don Vito Corleone
06-25-2002, 11:01 AM
But don't forget, the Army uses the lab that was the LOWEST bidder for the contract.

Andrew111, only you know if you did not do drugs. If you had, I don't know why you would bother coming here to cry about it anyway. I would just go to a reputable lab, get retested and call your congressman. They have staff to help their constituents with all sorts of problems.


The Army operates its own lab.

Aceman
06-25-2002, 11:37 AM
And just remember when you go to a private lab to get a drug test.......The Army will not accept those results and the Congressman's office will only take those results in consideration when they ask the Army to allow you to go through the MEPS again. A Congressional may heat up a place for a bit, but as I said before, the Tester will explain their procedures and that will be the end of it. They Congressman's Office cannot force the military to allow you to go through MEPS again.

I've seen a cocaine case go down the tubes when the defense presented an outside drug test taken a couple days after the results were returned. The Army did not accept it or consider it as it was taken well after the cocaine would have come up nondetectable. As for the hair test, yes, it will show drug use back to early childhood, but the Army does not accept the hair test as an acceptable test for enterance into the military.

The only false positives I've seen is when a prescription drug was taken before the test. YOU WOULD HAVE TO EAT 3-5 POPPY SEED MUFFUNS A DAY FOR 10-20 YEARS FOR POPPY SEEDS TO REGISTER YOU HOT. SITTING IN A ROOM WITH 5 DOPE SMOKERS FOR 2-3 DAYS WILL NOT PUT ENOUGH THC IN YOUR SYSTEM TO REGISTER YOU AS POSITIVE! What people are not understanding is that I can give a sample after I smoke dope and it not come up as a "POSITIVE" because the level of THC in my system was within the "allowable amount" There is a threshold for all drugs of how much is in your system before you're declared positive.

Don Vito Corleone
06-25-2002, 12:54 PM
As for the hair test, yes, it will show drug use back to early childhood, but the Army does not accept the hair test as an acceptable test for enterance into the military.

Only if you have some awfully long hair! The hair tests can only reflect drug use while the affected portion of the hair strand is growing. With careful (VERY expensive) analysis this can even be used to draw a rough timeline of drug use. That said, the only way a hair test could provide results back to early childhood is if a person still had hair grown during early childhood - I doubt many such people (if there are any) are trying to enter the armed forces.

tcsenter
06-25-2002, 03:26 PM
I am intimately familiar with the Air Force's collection program (I conduct an inspection of our base's program four times a year), and we are incredibly anal about details (appropriately so, since a positive result will virtually always end a member's career, and more often than not will send them to jail). False positives are all but unheard of, and I have never seen a single case of a known false positive (indeed, in every case I have personally seen, there ended up being corroboration for the positive result, usually in the form of a confession).Of course you've never seen a false positive, because any positive is considered CONCLUSIVELY TRUE and proving a false positive virtually impossible. You cannot find what you do not look for.
If you are assuming that the military is swimming with false positives, you are sorely wrong. I remain skeptical whether there was one in this case.Straw man. We know these drug tests are no more than 99.5-99.7% reliable. This means out of every 10,000 tests administered, it is entirely plausible that you could have as many as 50 incorrect results.

I'm not saying the military, or any laboratory for that matter, is 'swimming' in false positives. That would almost be as foolish and obstinant as altogether denying that false positives can and do happen. Not quite as foolish, but almost.

Andrew111
06-25-2002, 03:31 PM
Mistakes can and do happen, no matter how reliable they may be. As long as human intervention is needed, their is always the possibility of mistakes occuring. I know they made a mistake, so I won't back down. As for the procedures followed at MEPS, I know damn well they didn't follow the procedures described by you Air Force guys. I know I'm innocent, and that's all I care about.

Concerning drug testing using hair samples..........why don't they use that method instead of a urinalysis? It's not invasive like a urinalysis, and it detects drugs for a longer amount of time. I knew I was going to go to MEPS and be tested for drugs over 4 days in advance. Cocaine is detected for only 3-4 days after use with a urinalysis.....is a urinalysis cheaper than a hair test or is a hair test less reliable? I knew I had nothing to worry about because I don't do drugs, but they made a mistake. I can only imagine the amount of people who just stop doing drugs for a week to get in the military.

Aceman, care to explain what you don't buy about my timeline? I fail to see how you can be so confident that it must take longer than that, care to elaborate on that?

tcsenter
06-25-2002, 03:39 PM
Concerning drug testing using hair samples..........why don't they use that method instead of a urinalysis? Because it is 10x more expensive and less accurate. There are MORE erroneous results.

Aceman
06-25-2002, 03:45 PM
Of course you've never seen a false positive, because any positive is considered CONCLUSIVELY TRUE and proving a false positive virtually impossible. You cannot find what you do not look for.

We never see a false positive becasue positive test results are tested 2-3 times. After the first positive comes up, the specimen is tested again. If it comes up positive again, it is documented and tested again. if it positive again then 3 times and I think you can throw out the "false positive notion". If it is positive due to prescription drugs, then the false positive is classified as a negative for illegal drug use. If the person took a left over from 6 months ago codeine prescription yesterday to help out that nasty cough, he is found to be positive for illegal drug use. He used a prescription drug outside of the prescription time frame.

When the initial false positive is tested again and comes out negative, the testing stops and the individual is listed as negative for drug use. No further testing of the sample is done.

You say that the test is 99.5% accurate. I beg to differ. Once again the army is testing for a certain level of illegal substances. I'd say that your percent might be correct if we just tested and called every trace of illegal substance as a positive. The Army puts a threshold on the illegal substance so as not to deal with "false positives" from trace amounts of an illegal substance.

Aceman
06-25-2002, 03:58 PM
Aceman, care to explain what you don't buy about my timeline? I fail to see how you can be so confident that it must take longer than that, care to elaborate on that?

a) I've personally drawn and submitted over 10,000 bottles of piss for drug tests. The ONLY time I have seen results come back that fast is when there is a Command Directed test to find out if someone is high or drunk right at that instant.

b) As a potential soldier, your tests are LOW on the pecking order when it comes to the lab analyzing the specimens. (A Military Police or Transportation unit is a bit higher than a new recruit) Never have I seen test results come back any earlier than 10-14 days. I submitted samples in May 2002. I haven't seen the lab results come back as of yet. (We've nabbed about 1-3% of positive drug abusers every test.

c) If you came back positive, why was there no phone call to your recruiter directing him to find out if there were any recent prescriptions that might skew the results of the test? I don't know about new recruits, but I, personally, was called by my Commander when I came up hot on a piss test because I was on percocet for two weeks, three weks prior to one of my own tests. And, that is the procedures that they still use today.

d) With my 10 years experience in drug testing and counselling of abusers, I've seen them to be the best storytellers when the test comes up positive. Sorry, but after 10 years you hear the same BS from everyone. "There MUST be a mistake!" "They're wrong!" "It must have been when I was at the Amy Grant Concert last week!"

Can someone at least come up with something new and entertaining for an excuse!i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Andrew111
06-25-2002, 04:36 PM
I know that is the correct timeline. I took the urinalysis June 11th and got the phone call June 19th. Maybe one of the lab guys lost his glasses and thought it said positive instead of negative for cocaine:P

dleiss
06-25-2002, 05:48 PM
Andrew111,

You've shown a lot of drive, initiative, and keeping kool under pressure. Why would you want a low-paying job working with/for the likes of Aceman?

You could do better by getting a job with a large corporation that would send you to school at night.

Aceman
06-25-2002, 05:56 PM
You could do better by getting a job with a large corporation that would send you to school at night.

Thanks deilss, but the Army does pay me well (I have NEVER complained about my pay) and the Army is like a large corporation and they pay me to go to school at night if I'd like. I've worked for the civilian corporate world and I'd take the Army any day of the week over the "corporate world."

Don Vito Corleone
06-25-2002, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by: dleiss
Andrew111,

You've shown a lot of drive, initiative, and keeping kool under pressure. Why would you want a low-paying job working with/for the likes of Aceman?

You could do better by getting a job with a large corporation that would send you to school at night.


Those of us in the service will, for the most part, tell you that we do not serve in the military for the money. The fact that you apparently cannot understand a calling to service unrelated to personal gain does not give you the right to denigrate Aceman, who has not done or said anything to warrant it.

Andrew111
06-25-2002, 06:31 PM
My dad was in the Army for 20 years and we used to travel a lot and I got to visit military installations. I thought it was great, that's partly why I want to join.

By the way, I sent you a PM Aceman.

tcsenter
06-25-2002, 06:44 PM
We never see a false positive becasue positive test results are tested 2-3 times. After the first positive comes up, the specimen is tested again. If it comes up positive again, it is documented and tested again. if it positive again then 3 times and I think you can throw out the "false positive notion".GC/MS tests are "scientifically accurate" (99.998% confidence), but so are most statistical analysis, even the most flagrantly bogus ones.

The most rigorously controlled and monitored studies to evaluate the accuracy and reliability of GC/MS, where each and every single test is scrutinized and held to the highest testing standards, have still produced an error rate of one out of every 50,000 tests. So let us assume that every single lab in the US is held to the highest standards, where every single specimen and test is scrutinized by research-level standards, when we know that is far from the truth.

That would mean if every test was done "perfectly", there is still the INHERENT potential for as many as 300 erroneous results based on the approx. 15 million drug tests that are performed in the United States every year. That is the BEST CASE SCENARIO (human perfection), we know it only goes downhill from there.

99.998% is exceptional accuracy, we could only hope that all medications, medical procedures, or medical tests were as safe, reliable, or accurate. Its nice to be among the 99.998% of people who will come out on the favorable end of that curve. If you're among the .002%, things may not be so nice.

We like to believe the fantasy that those who would be among the .002% will only suffer minor consequences of an error, such as the denial of employment or entrance into the military. But there is really nothing at all that would prevent an officer in the military with 20 years of impeccable service from being among that .002%, who will be court martialed, dishonorably discharged, lose all of the military benefits they have earned, whose reputation will forever be tarnished, with absolutely no hope of recourse whatsoever.

I consent to the risks of the medications I take, as well as the medical procedures I undergo. I DO NOT CONSENT to the risk of being among that .002%. And remember, that .002% represents human PERFECTION.

glenn1
06-25-2002, 06:47 PM
Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: dleiss
Andrew111,

You've shown a lot of drive, initiative, and keeping kool under pressure. Why would you want a low-paying job working with/for the likes of Aceman?

You could do better by getting a job with a large corporation that would send you to school at night.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My dad was in the Army for 20 years and we used to travel a lot and I got to visit military installations. I thought it was great, that's partly why I want to join.[/quote]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Good. You're as bright as your test show you are. I'm glad to see you're able to make the distinction between the proper, ingrained, and reasonable sense of disdain that those in the military show towards drugs, and their feelings about you personally, and realize that the attitudes that are demonstrated about the subject of drug usage in the armed forces aren't a reflection on you as a person.

When talking about "hard" drugs (pretty much anything besides marijuana) I think you'll find that in the vast majority of service members, you'll find a strong degree of distaste regarding those who would take them. Disregarding the question of decriminalization for drug use (where opinions can and do vary among service members), i would say for most the mere idea of drug use is thought of as either simply digusting or utterly foolish. That someone would choose to use hard drugs perplexes many in the service, the same way many people regard smoking as a disgusting habit and can't see why someone would start or keep smoking.

InfectedMushroom
06-25-2002, 06:49 PM
Hmmm I have a friend who also tested positive for cocaine even though he had never tried it in his life. However he did eat bagels with poppy seeds pretty much every day which explained the test results.
He was applying for a job at an IBM research lab. He ended up getting the job since they retested and they also asked about his diet.
If you are in the same boat as him, contact them and explain.

Aceman
06-25-2002, 06:52 PM
tscenter, let's take a look at statistics then......

So let's say that the test is 99% accurate......

Round One of the urine specimen:
1 out of 100 would come out false positives or 100 our of 100,000 would be false positives

Round two of those false positive specimen being tested AGAIN for accuracy:
1 out of those 100 would come out false positive

Round three of the false positives being tested AGAIN for accuracy:
.1 test would be a complete false positive.

That is why they test a sample 2-3 times to throw out your "statistical errors".

tcsenter
06-25-2002, 07:28 PM
That is why they test a sample 2-3 times to throw out your "statistical errors". Your methology is flawed. It is not 1% of 1%. EMIT can produce an error rate between 5% and 15%, depending on who you ask. It is the LEAST accurate but most commonly used urinalysis "first" test. The second test can be to use another type or brand of EMIT, which is no more reliable overall. The military uses RIA, which is substantially more accurate than EMIT, but still far less than GC/MS. GC/MS is the DEFINITIVE test when positives are obtained in the first or second test. A specimen will go NO further than GC/MS and I gave a BEST CASE SCENARIO error rate of GC/MS.

This is NOT throwing out "statistical error", it is an INHERENT margin of error. You can only disclose the margin of error, you can not eliminate it.

This is not statistical error, this error is inherent in the TEST, not in the statistical measurement of the test's accuracy. Do you understand the difference?

The TEST ITSELF is NOT 100% accurate, is any of this getting through?

glenn1
06-25-2002, 07:33 PM
This is NOT throwing out "statistical error", it is an INHERENT margin of error. You can only disclose the margin of error, you can not eliminate it.

Like anything else in this world, human beings will never achieve perfection. Are you saying that because we can't guarantee accuracy of drug testing beyond a few figures to the right of the decimal point, that the military shouldn't test at all?

Andrew111
06-25-2002, 07:48 PM
Are you saying that because we can't guarantee accuracy of drug testing beyond a few figures to the right of the decimal point, that the military shouldn't test at all?
I did a confirmatory urinalysis test at a hospital and I got the results in 4 hours. I think MEPS facilities should do that type of testing right there, instead of sending it to one lab for all MEPS facilities in the US. If the initial test shows positive, they should tell the person so they can perform seperate urinalysis tests elsewhere while the military urinalysis is being tested again, in case they do confirm it positive through some type of mistake. I would have had a chance to show them that same day that they made a mistake, showing them three urinalysis tests performed the same day as their test. That's impossible the way they have it setup right now.

Andrew111
06-25-2002, 07:55 PM
I know that's asking a lot, but I haven't used prescription drugs in over a year, didn't take any type of medication before going to MEPS, and I have never done illegal drugs. But I can't disprove their test because I don't get to know the results for over a week:(

tcsenter
06-25-2002, 07:56 PM
When talking about "hard" drugs (pretty much anything besides marijuana) I think you'll find that in the vast majority of service members, you'll find a strong degree of distaste regarding those who would take them.And yet people who are in the military will say drugs are easier to get there than on the street in many cases. lol!

Sorta like those who deny that drugs are as readily available in our prisons as they are in our streets. Nope, doesn't happen here!
Like anything else in this world, human beings will never achieve perfection. Are you saying that because we can't guarantee accuracy of drug testing beyond a few figures to the right of the decimal point, that the military shouldn't test at all?No, I'm saying that unless a test is 100% accurate, nobody should be imprisoned or stripped of things they are entitled to and have EARNED. That a man can have a stellar employment or service record spanning many years which can completely be 'undone' by an imperfect test which is unable to predict behavior, integrity, character, or competency is irrational and absurd. "Zero tolerance" is merely a euphamism for "zero intelligence".

Don Vito Corleone
06-25-2002, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by: Andrew111

Are you saying that because we can't guarantee accuracy of drug testing beyond a few figures to the right of the decimal point, that the military shouldn't test at all?
I did a confirmatory urinalysis test at a hospital and I got the results in 4 hours. I think MEPS facilities should do that type of testing right there, instead of sending it to one lab for all MEPS facilities in the US. If the initial test shows positive, they should tell the person so they can perform seperate urinalysis tests elsewhere while the military urinalysis is being tested again, in case they do confirm it positive through some type of mistake. I would have had a chance to show them that same day that they made a mistake, showing them three urinalysis tests performed the same day as their test. That's impossible the way they have it setup right now.

No offense - I understand your frustration - but this would incredibly onerous logistically, and would require DOD to multiply its already huge investment in drug testing by several times. The incidence of false positives is extremely low and this would not be a wise investment of military-budget dollars.

Andrew111
06-25-2002, 08:03 PM
No offense - I understant your frustration - but this would incredibly onerous logistically, and would require DOD to multiply its already huge investment in drug testing by several times. The incidence of false positives is extremely low and this would not be a wise investment of military-budget dollars.
I know it will never happen, I was just dreaming:(

Aceman
06-25-2002, 10:41 PM
No, I'm saying that unless a test is 100% accurate, nobody should be imprisoned or stripped of things they are entitled to and have EARNED. That a man can have a stellar employment or service record spanning many years which can completely be 'undone' by an imperfect test which is unable to predict behavior, integrity, character, or competency is irrational and absurd. "Zero tolerance" is merely a euphamism for "zero intelligence".

At least in the Army, testing positive for drugs no longer automatically kicks you out. Testing positive for drug use has never been punishable under a court martial proceeding. (Selling the stuff will get you imprisioned, smoking the stuff in front of authorities will get you punitive actions, but testing positive can only result in administrative action......discharge.)

In the past 12 cases I've dealt with, 7 of them have gone to a treatment center for eval and possible rehab. They've been recommended for retention in the military and probably will get their request approved. 3 bonehead have decided to fight it even though two of them had meth, coke and pot show up in their system and they claimed they've never touched the stuff!i/expressions/rolleye.gif 2 others pretty much told their Commander to F Off that the tests were wrong and they wouldn't enter into the ADACP program. Their Commander recommended general discharges and my Commander recommended less than honorable discharges. I imagine the 3 other boneheads that decided to fight the positive results will either go down in flames from a board action or they'll listen to their defense attorney and plea bargain to a discharge with entitlement to retirement pay at 60. (Yes thes boneheads have over 20 years in the military.)

tcsenter, I still find your "false positive" fact hard to believe. How is it that myself and the other Urinalysis testers I work with have never gotten a "false positive"????? I've submitted over 150 samples myself as have most of the other testers (about 20 that I've worked with.) According to your stats, at least 1-2 of us should have had a false positive come up in all of those tests. No one has ever told me about coming up with a false positive. Like I said before, I've come up "hot" ONCE and it was because of the precription narcotic I had recently taken after a surgery.

Fugitive
06-25-2002, 10:53 PM
Well, good luck with everything. I hope it all works out as planed.

glenn1
06-25-2002, 11:20 PM
No, I'm saying that unless a test is 100% accurate, nobody should be imprisoned or stripped of things they are entitled to and have EARNED. That a man can have a stellar employment or service record spanning many years which can completely be 'undone' by an imperfect test which is unable to predict behavior, integrity, character, or competency is irrational and absurd.

Okay, let me put it to you this way then. This isn't about some office employee getting fired and a project slipping through the cracks. When people screw up in the military, people die. It would be a damn shame if "a man with a stellar service record spanning many years" got indicated as a false positive. It would be even more of a damn shame if we ignored a true positive, and that person caused the death of another man with a stellar service record spanning many years.

I'll do you one better. The guy who just got done packing the parachutes you and the rest of your team are about ready to use just got indicated as a positive in an urinanalysis test last week. Would you:

A. Say drug tests aren't perfect, strap on the chute, tell the rest of your team to do the same, and say "follow me" to the rest of your stick as you headed out the ramp of the C130, or,

B. Say "hell no, get that thing away from me!"

Don Vito Corleone
06-25-2002, 11:25 PM
At least in the Army, testing positive for drugs no longer automatically kicks you out. Testing positive for drug use has never been punishable under a court martial proceeding. (Selling the stuff will get you imprisioned, smoking the stuff in front of authorities will get you punitive actions, but testing positive can only result in administrative action......discharge.)

Be aware - this is NOT the case in all services - the Army is much more tolerant than the Air Force. Ordinarily a single positive UA in the AF without a legal explanation (e.g., a legal presciption) will nearly always lead to a discharge, and a positive result for anything other than marijuana will generally lead to a court-martial. Only in an extraordinary situation will a person who tests positive not be discharged.

technogeeky
06-25-2002, 11:43 PM
Andrew,

I'm sorry about your situation. I know how it feels being innocent but "proven" guilty. Not with this sort of life importance, however.


Good luck!




Aceman - You should grow up. Stop yelling at someone and start listening. Learn to ask a question or two before yelling based upon your assumed meaning of his sentences. I don't care how experienced you are or how anything you are - you need to have some respect for other people.


-tg

Don Vito Corleone
06-25-2002, 11:58 PM
Aceman - You should grow up. Stop yelling at someone and start listening. Learn to ask a question or two before yelling based upon your assumed meaning of his sentences. I don't care how experienced you are or how anything you are - you need to have some respect for other people.

I don't feel he has said anything wrong. I understand there is a temptation to take pity on Andrew (and I am not saying he does not deserve it), but Ace, like me, has seen dozens of people who made excuses for testing positive, only to end up confessing or otherwise being proven guilty later. I am not implying this is Andrew's situation, but trust me, it gets tiresome listening to excuses by people who end up caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

UltraQuiet
06-26-2002, 12:05 AM
I don't feel he has said anything wrong. I understand there is a temptation to take pity on Andrew (and I am not saying he does not deserve it), but Ace, like me, has seen dozens of people who made excuses for testing positive, only to end up confessing or otherwise being proven guilty later. I am not implying this is Andrew's situation, but trust me, it gets tiresome listening to excuses by people who end up caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

You can add me to that list. We are all a bit jaded in that the false positive claims never pan out. It gets even worse when another Chief or an Officer pops positive, claims that it was false and in the end they end up confessing. It's enough to make you doubt the veracity of anyone claims.


Chief

tcsenter
06-26-2002, 01:55 AM
A. Say drug tests aren't perfect, strap on the chute, tell the rest of your team to do the same, and say "follow me" to the rest of your stick as you headed out the ramp of the C130, orI would be more worried about the guy who is having family problems, or the guy for whom chute-packing has become mundane and automatic that his mind tends to wander while he is working. I would be more concerned with the guy's prior record of merit and service.

I'm not saying that positives should be ignored. There are other ways to monitor and deal with those testing positive. But heck, we send people to prison and death row on lesser confidence intervals than 99.998%, so what the hell.
tcsenter, I still find your "false positive" fact hard to believe. How is it that myself and the other Urinalysis testers I work with have never gotten a "false positive"?????The error rates I gave were for non-specific errors. They may be either false positive or negative and are associated with a variety of causes from equipment contamination to cross-reactivity with other substances to variable body chemistry. The rest of the discussion is academic, once you get passed the fact that 99.998% doesn't equal 100%. You'd be hard pressed to find a biochemist who would be willing to bet his career and reputation on a higher confidence interval.

Andrew111
06-26-2002, 01:35 PM
The actual urinalysis test might not have been wrong; they might of switched mine with someone who takes a codeine based prescription drug. They don't look at the prescription drugs a person takes unless they test positive I imagine. I'm not sure what happened, but their was a goof up somewhere.