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BrunoPuntzJones
08-08-2007, 09:56 PM
Link (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=474025&in_page_id=1770)

From London

A homeowner was arrested after a burglar plunged from the balcony of his top-floor flat.

The intruder suffered head injuries and is fighting for his life after falling around 30ft on to a concrete path.

Later police arrested the owner and are investigating whether the intruder was pushed.

The incident happened early on Monday when Patrick Walsh, 56, awoke to find the 43-year-old man rifling through his flat.

They argued and the confrontation moved towards the rear window of the flat.

Scroll down for more...

The burglar fell from this third floor window

It is believed the intruder then smashed the window and clambered out on to a narrow ledge and fell to the ground.

Mr Walsh phoned police and at around 6.30am officers found the man on the ground outside the smart Victorian apartment block in Chorlton-cum-Hardy,

He was taken to hospital with serious head injuries.

Officers arrested Mr Walsh on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm with intent and are trying to establish whether the intruder was forced out of the window.

The arrest is expected to fuel arguments about the rights of householders to defend themselves against burglars.

Patrick Walsh

Under suspicion: Patrick Walsh yesterday

The issue has been high on the law and order agenda since farmer Tony Martin was jailed for shooting dead a burglar in 1999.

Following the Martin affair the Crown Prosecution Service and the Association of Chief Police Officers said any householder can use reasonable force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent crime.

Yesterday Mr Walsh, who was given bail pending further inquiries, refused to speak about the incident.

But his solicitor Victor Wozny said: "My client is not at liberty to say anything because he is under police bail.

"However we appreciate that the public view might be that this is a man arrested in his own home defending his own property."

A neighbour said: "Police arrived in what seemed to be minutes and were there for the whole day.

"It's shocking to find out what has happened but people shouldn't break into other people's houses."

Another resident said: "I presume we will have to respect the burglar's rights while his victim has the nightmare of court hanging over his head. It all seems so unfair."

A spokesman for Greater Manchester Police said they had been called following reports that an intruder had fallen from a top-floor flat.

A 56-year-old man had woken up to find a man in his flat.

"Following an exchange of words, the alleged burglar was found unconscious on the pavement outside the flat.

"It is believed that he had fallen from the fourth-floor window."

He said the man is 43 and lives locally and inquiries are continuing to establish the circumstances surrounding the incident.

Mr Walsh was later released on bail until November. If charged and convicted he could face a life sentence.

I'm not really sure what to say. So I guess you have the right to defend yourself and your house, but you can't use a gun or force. Bad guy gets hurt, then he becomes the victim and the homeowner can go to jail the rest of his life.

I read this elsewhere, and it sounded about right. I wasn't even sure it was satire considering what that nation is becoming. Guess they need to include cameras in houses now since having them on every corner didn't help.

The World Weekly Times Colour Supplement

London, July 24. 2007

Britons Warned not to Become Victims of Crime.

In a press release today, Home Secretary John Reid warned Britons that serious penalties await those who allow themselves to become victims of crime.

"There's much too much crime being perpetrated against those leaving their homes for purposes like going to work, going shopping, going down to the pub, and other seemingly innocent reasons", Reid said. "What people need to remember is that it takes two for a violent crime to be perpetrated, an attacker and a victim".

London Police Chief Superintendant Emil Bukko-Bukko Singh-Boggs (Mrs) added "It's gotten completely out of hand. People leaving their houses and flats all hours of the day and night without a by your leave, no controls, my officers don't know who is a criminal and who is a victim. By the time the casualty wagon's got around, they're usually too incoherent to give us a proper statement".

Penalties for becoming a victim of a crime will range from a stern lecture to confiscation of one's home, car and other property. Reid defended these by saying: "Look, we have got to send a message. Everyone has to do one's part in lowering the crime rate, and if one has to experience minor inconveniences like never leaving one's home, it's a small price to pay to keep the UK safe".

In order to keep from running afoul of the new penalties, residents of the UK are advised to remain indoors at all times. If one should find themselves confronted in their home, then it would be permissible to run into the street, but if confronted there should roll up into the fetal position and await for police to arrive.

Home Secretary Reid made a final plea for compliance; "It's in everyone's best interest, and for the good of the nation". "If it's only the criminal element on the streets, the police will have a much easier time directing them to the proper rehabilitation facilities. I think all responsible citizens agree with that".

GoPackGo
08-08-2007, 10:47 PM
Can't use force?

BS...you broke into my house. I have no idea what you are up to?

What should I do ask? Get it in writing? Play Lets make a Deal?

Gee...you know what you lose your rights when you Break into MY house!

miketheidiot
08-08-2007, 10:55 PM
i don't think anyone disagrees with using force for self defense, its when people go all vigilante and go out of the way to kill them instead of pursuing proper means once its all under control. It sounds like in this case, the individual in question tossed the intruder out the window and is certainly worth having a further look.

Jaskalas
08-08-2007, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Can't use force?

BS...you broke into my house. I have no idea what you are up to?

What should I do ask? Get it in writing? Play Lets make a Deal?

Gee...you know what you lose your rights when you Break into MY house!

There have been plenty of cases where if the attacker doesn't take your life or the life of your family then the court will finish the job for them. Apparently you can't be the victim if you're still breathing.

GoPackGo
08-08-2007, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
i don't think anyone disagrees with using force for self defense, its when people go all vigilante and go out of the way to kill them instead of pursuing proper means once its all under control. It sounds like in this case, the individual in question tossed the intruder out the window and is certainly worth having a further look.

You break into MY house and come between ME and MY Family you will be lucky if all that happens is you getting tossed out the window....

They really should start passing tough shit laws for criminal behavior.

ProfJohn
08-08-2007, 11:03 PM
I can?t imagine an American jury finding anyone guilty for what this guy did, but who knows in England.

babylon5
08-08-2007, 11:04 PM
I am not surprised if there is ever an American jury convict homeowners for hurting a burglar, sleazy lawyers manipulate which evidence get presented in court.

Nebor
08-08-2007, 11:06 PM
There is no right to self defense in England. The government has a monopoly on the use of force.

jackace
08-08-2007, 11:33 PM
I remember hearing about a story where a robber came into a house through a skylight window and he fell and broke his ankle, leg, or something. The robber sued the home owner and won because he left something in the middle of the room the thief landed on. This happened in America

ProfJohn
08-08-2007, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by: jackace
I remember hearing about a story where a robber came into a house through a skylight window and he fell and broke his ankle, leg, or something. The robber sued the home owner and won because he left something in the middle of the room the thief landed on. This happened in America
Sounds like an urban legend.

Strk
08-08-2007, 11:40 PM
I'm all for the use of deadly force on intruders. How you attain that force, I'm going to leave it up to the home owner to decide.

jackace
08-09-2007, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: jackace
I remember hearing about a story where a robber came into a house through a skylight window and he fell and broke his ankle, leg, or something. The robber sued the home owner and won because he left something in the middle of the room the thief landed on. This happened in America
Sounds like an urban legend.

My above comment might have been an urban legend, but I found a site that lists a bunch of "frivolous lawsuits"

http://www.wellingtonpublicati...ponsibility/part1.html (http://www.wellingtonpublications.com/hsf/1994/responsibility/part1.html)

"A burglar, attempting to break into a house through a skylight was injured when it collapsed under his weight. He sued the skylight company--and won."

"Another absurd act of irresponsible behavior, is the man in Portland, Oregon, who, in trying to rob someone's house, broke his arm. Instead of going to jail, the man sued the owners of the home, because he hurt himself on their property. The crazy thing is that he won!"
Josh McFarland, Phoenix High , Phoenix, Oregon

"Laura, 16 years old, and Michael, 17 years old, had been dating for a mere two months when they decided to have sex. The two teens waltzed into their local pharmacy and shoplifted a box of condoms. One of the condoms that the couple stole broke during sex, and Laura was impregnated. The two teens sued the store for a large sum of money, claiming that the store should not have allowed faulty contraceptives to be placed where tempted teens could steal them."
Angelina J. Morrow, Plainview High School, Ardmore, Oklahoma

"Still another absurd case involves a bank robber who is suing the bank he robbed because he was hurt while trying to escape through the turnstile doors. The criminals are being rewarded for their blunders and the victims are paying. Too many people are shifting the blame and neglecting their responsibilities as citizens."
Tisha Bacigalupi, Pioneer High School, San Jose, California

"Also in New York, an armed robber was shot and injured by a police officer. The robber sued the police claiming that the officer had no right to shoot, even though he (the robber) was in the act of committing armed robbery. He (the robber) came out of court $4.5 million richer."
Keli Crane, Blue Ridge High School, Blue Ridge, Texas

Hacp
08-09-2007, 12:36 AM
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Nebor
08-09-2007, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by: jackace
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: jackace
I remember hearing about a story where a robber came into a house through a skylight window and he fell and broke his ankle, leg, or something. The robber sued the home owner and won because he left something in the middle of the room the thief landed on. This happened in America
Sounds like an urban legend.

My above comment might have been an urban legend, but I found a site that lists a bunch of "frivolous lawsuits"

http://www.wellingtonpublicati...ponsibility/part1.html (http://www.wellingtonpublications.com/hsf/1994/responsibility/part1.html)

"A burglar, attempting to break into a house through a skylight was injured when it collapsed under his weight. He sued the skylight company--and won."

"Another absurd act of irresponsible behavior, is the man in Portland, Oregon, who, in trying to rob someone's house, broke his arm. Instead of going to jail, the man sued the owners of the home, because he hurt himself on their property. The crazy thing is that he won!"
Josh McFarland, Phoenix High , Phoenix, Oregon

"Laura, 16 years old, and Michael, 17 years old, had been dating for a mere two months when they decided to have sex. The two teens waltzed into their local pharmacy and shoplifted a box of condoms. One of the condoms that the couple stole broke during sex, and Laura was impregnated. The two teens sued the store for a large sum of money, claiming that the store should not have allowed faulty contraceptives to be placed where tempted teens could steal them."
Angelina J. Morrow, Plainview High School, Ardmore, Oklahoma

"Still another absurd case involves a bank robber who is suing the bank he robbed because he was hurt while trying to escape through the turnstile doors. The criminals are being rewarded for their blunders and the victims are paying. Too many people are shifting the blame and neglecting their responsibilities as citizens."
Tisha Bacigalupi, Pioneer High School, San Jose, California

"Also in New York, an armed robber was shot and injured by a police officer. The robber sued the police claiming that the officer had no right to shoot, even though he (the robber) was in the act of committing armed robbery. He (the robber) came out of court $4.5 million richer."
Keli Crane, Blue Ridge High School, Blue Ridge, Texas

Did you really just cite a bunch of high school student urban legends as proof? :confused:

Whoozyerdaddy
08-09-2007, 01:52 AM
Note to self: Move to London while practicing to be a cat burgler.

ericlp
08-09-2007, 02:04 AM
Just think... That guy won't be robbing your house when he gets out of jail...

I applaud the dude... Think how much tax payers money he will be saving while not having to go through trials and house the idiot in prison..... Sigh...

I know it's not American Taxes.... I did read the artical. And it won't be your house unless your posting from England just in case you get any more idea's....

jackace
08-09-2007, 02:18 AM
I was not sure about any of those lawsuits, hence the wording of my post and the quotations around "frivolous lawsuits"

I'm not sure on the legality of trespassers suing homeowners for injuries, but if you shoot someone or subdue them with force you stand a chance of that person suing you in civil court. This can be costly and time consuming. I do believe there are some states that allow you to protect property by shooting someone and others do not allow it. I am not a lawyer and do not claim to be one so I am not 100% on any of this stuff.

Nebor
08-09-2007, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by: jackace
I was not sure about any of those lawsuits, hence the wording of my post and the quotations around "frivolous lawsuits"

I'm not sure on the legality of trespassers suing homeowners for injuries, but if you shoot someone or subdue them with force you stand a chance of that person suing you in civil court. This can be costly and time consuming. I do believe there are some states that allow you to protect property by shooting someone and others do not allow it. I am not a lawyer and do not claim to be one so I am not 100% on any of this stuff.

25 states have "Castle Doctrine." This prohibits you from being sued by a criminal. You don't have it in NC though.

Moonbeam
08-09-2007, 04:02 AM
Urban Myth? (http://www.overlawyered.com/2006/09/the_burglar_and_the_skylight_a_1.html)

DangerAardvark
08-09-2007, 04:33 AM
How typically English. If they're not arresting someone for racism, they're arresting victims. Then they have the balls to lecture us on our crime rate. Amazing what you can get away with if you do it in an English accent.

1prophet
08-09-2007, 05:29 AM
What's next, charge the woman with dressing provocitively if the prosecuter believes that is what initiated the rape?

Darwin333
08-09-2007, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: jackace
I was not sure about any of those lawsuits, hence the wording of my post and the quotations around "frivolous lawsuits"

I'm not sure on the legality of trespassers suing homeowners for injuries, but if you shoot someone or subdue them with force you stand a chance of that person suing you in civil court. This can be costly and time consuming. I do believe there are some states that allow you to protect property by shooting someone and others do not allow it. I am not a lawyer and do not claim to be one so I am not 100% on any of this stuff.

25 states have "Castle Doctrine." This prohibits you from being sued by a criminal. You don't have it in NC though.

My state passed a companion bill along with the Castle Doctrine. It explicitly states in law that you have no ?duty to retreat? from criminal attack if you are in a place where you have a legal right to be.

None of that "but you coulda ran into a bedroom, or you could have dove through the 2x2 bathroom window to get away from the bad guy in your house".

Break into my home and you will leave in a bag. The police will shake my hand and recommend a company that specializes in cleaning up messes like those caused by 00 buckshot, my insurance company will cut me a check and life will be back to normal a few hours later. Well, for me at least.

Blain
08-09-2007, 07:32 AM
At least he didn't use a handgun.

It's obvious what must be done!
ALL buildings in Manchester over two stories tall, MUST BE RAZED! :laugh:

StageLeft
08-09-2007, 08:00 AM
Not surprised it was the UK. They love their burglars there. Same in Canada. AFAIK, it's not legal in Canada to use lethal force at 3 am in the dark against an intruder unless you are VERY SURE he's trying to harm you or family. Not sure if you're supposed to hold a quick interview on his intentions and, if you deem them not to go beyond theft you're supposed to grab your kids out of bed to escort them out of the house to let him finish or not.its when people go all vigilante and go out of the way to kill them instead of pursuing proper means once its all under control. It sounds like in this case, the individual in question tossed the intruder out the window and is certainly worth having a further look. Hey, your name is quite on cue. You think this was "under control"? If I'm arguing/scuffling with an intruder in my home, nothing is quite under control. Standpoints like yours would have ensured the demise of humanity many generations ago because you lack balls. You are willing to secede what should be natural, instinctive common sense to politically correct nonsense and a fantastical belief in the world.

palehorse
08-09-2007, 08:01 AM
I learned this truism long ago from a federal police officer: Dead burglars tell no tales. So, if you're going to shoot them, make sure the SOB's are dead.

Mxylplyx
08-09-2007, 09:16 AM
I believe if someone forces your hand by committing a criminal act against you in which you are required to defend yourself, ANYTHING that happens in the immediate moment should be without penalty to the victim. He should be allowed to beat the guys head into the ground with a hammer until it's a pulp. When people are put into a panic in which they fear for their lives, they often times arent collected enough to make rational decisions about what is appropriate force, and shouldnt be held responsible for their actions if such a situation is forced upon them.

PingSpike
08-09-2007, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I learned this truism long ago from a federal police officer: Dead burglars tell no tales. So, if you're going to shoot them, make sure the SOB's are dead.

Kill the fuckers, put a steak knife in their hand and then call the police.

beyoku
08-09-2007, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I learned this truism long ago from a federal police officer: Dead burglars tell no tales. So, if you're going to shoot them, make sure the SOB's are dead.

Kill the fuckers, put a steak knife in their hand and then call the police.

Triumph
08-09-2007, 10:10 AM
Thank God we seceded from them 200+ years ago. People in Britain have a completely different mindset than we do on alot of things, it was true 200 years ago and it is true today. They tend to trust their government alot more than we do. But it is their country and they can do what they want, I won't berate them too hard because I hate it when they criticize us.

On the other hand, what kind of a country doesn't allow people to protect themselves from attack in their own homes?

JEDIYoda
08-09-2007, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by: Hacp
Two wrongs don't make a right.

would love to see your reaction if it was your house the guy invaded.
Would you ask him where he wants your stolen stuff to be delivered?? lol

1EZduzit
08-09-2007, 10:17 AM
I suppose after this lawsuit the British goverment will require homeowners to put little stickers on their houses:

WARNING: Burglary can be hazardous to your health.

Moonbeam
08-09-2007, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I learned this truism long ago from a federal police officer: Dead burglars tell no tales. So, if you're going to shoot them, make sure the SOB's are dead.

Kill the fuckers, put a steak knife in their hand and then call the police.

If I could somehow subdue a bugler in such a way as not to kill him I would rather risk jail than kill him to avoid that possibility later. It would be murder to protect my own skin and I would live with that knowledge whereas in jail my conscious would be clean. My self respect is the only valuable I have that I can keep and it's value is incalculably great.

jonks
08-09-2007, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I learned this truism long ago from a federal police officer: Dead burglars tell no tales. So, if you're going to shoot them, make sure the SOB's are dead.

Kill the fuckers, put a steak knife in their hand and then call the police.

If I could somehow subdue a bugler in such a way as not to kill him I would rather risk jail than kill him to avoid that possibility later. It would be murder to protect my own skin and I would live with that knowledge whereas in jail my conscious would be clean. My self respect is the only valuable I have that I can keep and it's value is incalculably great.

I think this all depends on your situation. Say you have a wife and two year old daughter upstairs. You going to take the chance you can subdue the burglar? I can't say with certainty how I would act here. If I wake up and go downstairs for a snack and stumble on a burglar who heads for the exit, I think I'd just let him go, even if I was holding a gun. But if there was even the slightest hint this guy was planning on sticking around, I doubt I'd be asking too many questions of him before acting. But if I say, knocked him unconscious or shot him in the leg, I don't think it'd be necessary to then put one in his forehead.

CPA
08-09-2007, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: jackace
I remember hearing about a story where a robber came into a house through a skylight window and he fell and broke his ankle, leg, or something. The robber sued the home owner and won because he left something in the middle of the room the thief landed on. This happened in America
Sounds like an urban legend.

It is, check Snopes.

StageLeft
08-09-2007, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by: Triumph
On the other hand, what kind of a country doesn't allow people to protect themselves from attack in their own homes?You can protect yourself, but only if your immediate safety is 100% in question. Otherwise, you need to have a sit down and chat over tea and maybe offer to pay for their counselling.My self respect is the only valuable I have that I can keep and it's value is incalculably great. It would be greater if your killed off the apostrophe in "it's" :)

JD50
08-09-2007, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by: Hacp
Two wrongs don't make a right.

This has got to be the dumbest statement that I have ever heard in regards to self defense. I'm not meaning this as an insult so please don't take it as one, but you seem very young, possibly still living at home with your parents. One day, when you have a family of your own that you are responsible for keeping safe, you will feel (or at least you should) very differently about this. When someone breaks into your house, its not about revenge, or right vs. wrong, or whatever you think its about, its about keeping yourself and the ones you love safe.

dahunan
08-09-2007, 12:10 PM
If someone attacks me then I am fairly certain I would do my best to end their life because I have NO IDEA if that is what they want to do to me.

You enter someones only safe and private area then it is a direct attack on that person and their loved ones.


The miserable criminal should FEEL extreme thankfulness that he is still alive..

Burglars KNOW or should be taught that they can be killed for breaking and entering

JD50
08-09-2007, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by: dahunan
If someone attacks me then I am fairly certain I would do my best to end their life because I have NO IDEA if that is what they want to do to me.

You enter someones only safe and private area then it is a direct attack on that person and their loved ones.


The miserable criminal should FEEL extreme thankfulness that he is still alive..

Burglars KNOW or should be taught that they can be killed for breaking and entering


Exactly! Its very easy for people to over analyze situations after the fact, when there is no threat to their life and say what they think they would do if they were ever in that situation. When it comes down to a life or death situation, which is just about anytime someone breaks into your house, anything goes.

piasabird
08-09-2007, 01:48 PM
You never know if a theif will have a gun or a knife or some club to beat you senseless. You have to assume if some idiot breaks into your house, that they are armed and dangerous.

Triumph
08-09-2007, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by: piasabird
You never know if a theif will have a gun or a knife or some club to beat you senseless. You have to assume if some idiot breaks into your house, that they are armed and dangerous.

Absolutely, there is no other course of action. NO ONE has the right to come into your house uninvited, short of a warrant. Everyone inherently has the right to protect oneself in one's home, it is not the government that grants this right but rather the government who restricts this right by passing laws.

Blain
08-09-2007, 03:07 PM
Typical yank

Triumph
08-09-2007, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by: Blain
Typical yank

who what?

Darwin333
08-09-2007, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by: Triumph
Originally posted by: piasabird
You never know if a theif will have a gun or a knife or some club to beat you senseless. You have to assume if some idiot breaks into your house, that they are armed and dangerous.

Absolutely, there is no other course of action. NO ONE has the right to come into your house uninvited, short of a warrant. Everyone inherently has the right to protect oneself in one's home, it is not the government that grants this right but rather the government who restricts this right by passing laws.

Luckily I live in a state that allows us to defend ourselves.

However, even if I lived somewhere that did not allow it my response would be no different. Like the saying goes "It is better to be judged by 12 then to be carried by 6". If I must face jail time to ensure that my daughter is not hurt then so be it.

PrinceofWands
08-09-2007, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: jackace
I remember hearing about a story where a robber came into a house through a skylight window and he fell and broke his ankle, leg, or something. The robber sued the home owner and won because he left something in the middle of the room the thief landed on. This happened in America
Sounds like an urban legend.

There's some support that these things have happened. Search for 'skylight' in this (http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/93-94/bill/sen/sb_0001-0050/sbx1_44_cfa_940615_183152_sen_comm) document. I realize it's slightly different, just pointing out that even urban legends usually come from a grain of truth.

ultra laser
08-09-2007, 04:32 PM
Britain?s biggest foreign visa consultancy firm has revealed that applications have soared in the last seven months by 80 per cent to almost 4,000 a week. Ten years ago the figure was just 300 a week.

Most people are relocating within the Commonwealth ? in Australia, Canada and South Africa. They are almost all young professionals and skilled workers aged 20-40.

And many cite their reason for wanting to quit as immigration to these shores ? and the burden it is placing on their communities and local authorities. The dearth of good schools, spiralling house prices, rising crime and tax increases are also driving people away.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts...eek-trying-to-leave-UK (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15642/4,000-people-a-week-trying-to-leave-UK)

It appears that England is a less than desirable place to live nowadays.

Kadarin
08-09-2007, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I learned this truism long ago from a federal police officer: Dead burglars tell no tales. So, if you're going to shoot them, make sure the SOB's are dead.

Kill the fuckers, put a steak knife in their hand and then call the police.

If I could somehow subdue a bugler in such a way as not to kill him I would rather risk jail than kill him to avoid that possibility later. It would be murder to protect my own skin and I would live with that knowledge whereas in jail my conscious would be clean. My self respect is the only valuable I have that I can keep and it's value is incalculably great.

Not all deliberate killing is "murder".

Moonbeam
08-09-2007, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I learned this truism long ago from a federal police officer: Dead burglars tell no tales. So, if you're going to shoot them, make sure the SOB's are dead.

Kill the fuckers, put a steak knife in their hand and then call the police.

If I could somehow subdue a bugler in such a way as not to kill him I would rather risk jail than kill him to avoid that possibility later. It would be murder to protect my own skin and I would live with that knowledge whereas in jail my conscious would be clean. My self respect is the only valuable I have that I can keep and it's value is incalculably great.

I think this all depends on your situation. Say you have a wife and two year old daughter upstairs. You going to take the chance you can subdue the burglar? I can't say with certainty how I would act here. If I wake up and go downstairs for a snack and stumble on a burglar who heads for the exit, I think I'd just let him go, even if I was holding a gun. But if there was even the slightest hint this guy was planning on sticking around, I doubt I'd be asking too many questions of him before acting. But if I say, knocked him unconscious or shot him in the leg, I don't think it'd be necessary to then put one in his forehead.

Wasn't saying any more than you are here. There are those in the thread recommending that you do in fact put a bullet to the head so the person can't testify against you and manage to get you sent to prison. That would be premeditated murder, in my opinion, and I would rather risk going to jail.