Born Again Christians

[Total Refected Power]

I have read several times here about the difficulty of having a relationship with a Born Again Christian, when you do not share their feelings. What do they do that makes it so difficult?

I am not interested in starting a Holy War. Just a question about RELATIONSHIPS!!!!

Thanks.

[ICyourNipple]

they constantly shove their views onto you and will NEVER take a hint. from my experience they also seem to think they have all the answers and are somehow better than everyone else.

[Noriaki]

Religious people usually have very very strong beliefs in something or another, and tend to think everyone else should share their "englighted" views.

My dad and step mom went to church for a long time, and I've had the opportunity to meet some nice Christians, they have their beliefs and shared them with me, but when I said that I didn't believe the same as them, that was fine with them. They were genuinely nice people and tended to be pretty straight forward with their thoughts (if they are somewhat old fashioned in my opinion, I still respect people that say what they think).

I think these "Born Agains" feel they have something to prove that they can be just as good christians as any other....but that's just *my* theory...I've met many christians that have been good friends...I think they always wished I would convert, but they never tried to force their beliefs on me....

But in regards to relationships, it's difficult to have a religious belief and be in a serious relationship with someone that doens't share your belief.

[toph99]

the one's at my school annoy me to no ends. i could never be in a relationship with one, it just wouldn't work. you have your own views, fine with me, but don't try to change me

[BoberFett]

Since getting married my wife has become a Christian. It's just one cause of a lot of tension between us. Born again Christians tend to feel that the answer to any of life's problems is to read the bible and pray. They also very closely follow biblical values, often without thought. They simply do what they're told.

For marital relationships, the Bible says 'Do not be unequally yoked to unbelievers.' But it's common sense just the same, why would you marry someone who hates what you have based your life upon?

In any old friendship, it's a different thing. God has called us to live out the Great Commission, to tell people about this gift that He's given us all. Relationships are a good way to get this message out... It's the most effective ministy technique, meet people, show them the life of a Christian. If a person is totally turned off by this, there's probably someone else out there who is seeking and could use more attention. On a related note, Christians are set apart from this world, so we try not be of the world, seeking it's pleasures and whatnot. Pretty much every non-Christian has an opposite meaning of life (as demonstrated by the meaning of life thread;)), so it's an obvious area of conflict when you just don't understand why I'm not going out drinking and partying with you. Hey, I'll be your friend, I'll show you love, but I'm not going to engage in activity that's going to bring me down.

I don't know if that helps you understand, but it's what I got at the moment:)

[Isla]

I became a Born Again when I first became involved with Mr Isla.

I had always been a Christian, but apparently, growing up Catholic was not quite good enough. I soon found out that my family and people in general were looked down upon. As an ex-Catholic, that made me VERY low on on the social ladder....

I had to burn all my secular music, including my Yes albums, Simon and Garfunkel, and Alan Parsons Project. Anything from my secular, sinful past needed to be released. No Santa at Christmas, either... ever notice how Santa and Satan have the same letters? Hmmmmmm?

In defense of Born Agains in general, not all of them are this way. True to form, I found myself in an extreme situation. The WORST part of it was I actually believed for a while that I wasn't worthy, or good enough.... that I would have to be even MORE Christ like than anyone else to be redeemed. The salvation prayer is one thing, but the SOCIAL STRUCTURE of the church and the family is a different story. There is a lingo.... I was a 'baby Christian', even though I was 24 years old and had always considered myself a Christian. Apparently, Catholics don't count. One of my sister in laws actually made the comment that I was DIRT until I met them. This is not true! It wasn't until a special person came into my life and reminded me that I WAS GOOD and worthy that I was able to crawl out of the pit I was in.

This has been the hardest part of my marriage.

There are INTERNAL controls and EXTERNAL controls. I am good because it feels good to me... goodness is its own reward. I am not good because I am worried about my salvation. That would be an external control, and when people think no one else is looking, they have a tendency to ditch external controls the first chance they get.

True Christians get simple, humble pleasure from being Christlike, not a sense of power, pride, or importance.

Hmmm. Did I ramble too much?

[Noriaki]

<< and are somehow better than everyone else. >>




<< On a related note, Christians are set apart from this world, so we try not be of the world >>




All I can say is that I hope that second quote was sarcasm.

[Capn]

Isla, what you went through angers me to no end. Might I guess you were down south, perhaps the Southern baptists? I really hope you do understand that many more contemporary churches find such practices revolting. I'm from New England and most churches I've been to are very contemporary and very non-orthodox my church even has a female pastor.

[aUt0eXebat]

they dont work cus #1, your not suspose to be with an unsaved person.
and #2, the unsaved is going to drag the saved down, their views are different on things, just about everything. And whoever the person said that we fix our problems by reading the Bible and praying, that is true. and it works. you may htink its dumnb and dosnt work, its becuase you need a thing called FAITH.

[toph99]

oh, and just a word of advice. incase any of you here are &quot;bible pushers&quot; (and no, i'm not trying to provoke anyone, or be mean or anything) just take into consideration that 99% of the people you try pushing a religion onto are not interested at all. might as well save your breath and self esteem, because some people aren't too friendly when they are pestered

just some friendly advice :)

[Isla]

Yup, down South, Capn. Don't worry... I haven't lost my faith. However, I am very unlikely to join any churches down here, what with my olive skin and all...

It's been really hard on Mr Isla, to realize the prejudice and hypocrisy. I feel worse for him than for me.

Onward and Upward!

:)

Set apart, different, not the same... You're putting the word &quot;better&quot; in my mouth. I never said &quot;better.&quot; I'm no better than the next guy. Different because my sins are paid for, and yours can be, too.

[ICyourNipple]

i am very strongly against religion and everytime one of these threads starts it takes a ton of will power for me not to instantly start disproving and making a mockery of religious beliefs. just have to remember its not even worth my time.

[Total Refected Power]

Had a Jewish acquaintance and said if he was going to be a Christian, he would want to be an original: Catholic.
(just some levity here, those are not fighting words, peace).

The original Christian church is documented in the book of Acts. If you would read it (even just Ch. 2) you would see many differences between it and many churches of today... Find a church like that.

[Noriaki]

<< Different because my sins are paid for, and yours can be, too >>


Aren't all our sins paid for? It's been almost 10 years since bible school on sundays, but isn't that what Jesus died for according to you people?


I feel your pain ICyourNipple....I think I'm just going to leave this thread alone from here out....

[Capn]

(sarcasm) I'm sure the items of wisdom you may have will surely disprove my personal convictions. But thanks for restraining yourself. (/sarcasm)

hehe :)

Yep, Jesus died for all sins. All you have to do is accept the gift. Believe. That's all. If God isn't worth your time........ He still loves you:).

[BoberFett]

<< its becuase you need a thing called FAITH. >>

Understood, and agreed. But I'm a bit lowon faith right now. I was raised Christian, but have since seen, heard, learned and discussed things that have put me off of religion for at least as far into the future as I can currently see.

[Napalm381]

I'm in the same boat as BoberFett. Raised a christian, but have since rejected pretty much everything the church taught me.

[Russ]

I see we have yet another thread filled with ignorance and assumption about Christians. I will point out one thing; even though I'm sure that it will not make the bigots any more likely to grasp the concept. There is a HUGE difference between a faith in Christ (Born Again), and organized religion.

Here's a clue for you: You are surrounded by us. Everywhere you turn, we are there. Yet, most of us have never tried to tell you ANYTHING about how you should run your life.

Russ, NCNE

[lowtech1]

I second what IcyourNipple said.

I too was born under the Roman Catholic Church that my mother imposed upon me, but I have strike out on my own since I was 16 years old.

The Christian Churches share a common fundamental believe that the father of America, and every other honest religious sect, or organize group founders shares. But, I question the current religious factions, because it seem as if what they preach &amp; what they do is a contradiction of terms...It seem to me that religions/Gods create everyone equally, but a lot of the religious people have a notion that they are better than the godless heathen.

A quote I got from my heathen great uncle, ?does the Buddhists go to hell after death, because they don?t believe in Christ??.

[Noriaki]

Bobtist, Isla, Capn and anyone else that may have these beliefs.
I'd like to apologize, you are all entitled to whatever you choose to belive in, your beliefs have no affect on my life, and there's no reason I should not respect what you believe in. I'm sorry for calling down what you believe in. And I'll do my best not to do it again.

[Napalm381]

<< Yet, most of us have never tried to tell you ANYTHING about how you should run your life. >>

And I appreciate those of you that respect my decision not to believe what you do. However, the few that DO try to push their beliefs on me are so vocal about it are extremely aggravating.

[ICyourNipple]

i'm not going to get into the specifics (unless someone asks for it) but i've done a massive amount of research into the subject and i can assure you that the belief of creationism doesn't have a single leg to stand on.

the bottom line is this: THERE IS NO CHRISTIANITY!!!

everyone believes what they want to believe. there are so many factions at this point that instead of christianity we have what i would call &quot;Russism&quot;, &quot;Capnism&quot;, &quot;Islaism&quot;, and &quot;Bobtistism&quot;. what it comes down to is the individual accepts the part of the religion they can deal with, and either reject the other parts or become the typical christian hypocrite.

[Total Refected Power]

I didn't want to go here but it seems to me that religion is largely cultural, depending on where you were born and live. Somebody born in Pakistan is likely going to have a different view them someone born in Pennsylvania.

[Yeeny]

You know, people who are religious hear it just as much as people who are not, as Isla stated in her post. My ex-boyfriend was a Born Again Christian, and I am a Catholic. He knew I adored my father, and tried to endlessly torment me by telling me my father was burning in hell because he was not Born Again before he died. And I have met other Born Again Christians, who I never would have realized what they were until I asked in a conversation. Religious denominations have nothing to do with people saying things like this, its solely the people behind it trying to push their way of life on others.

[Russ]

Last time I was at the grocery store, there was a Black female in line paying with food stamps. Therefore, all Black females are on welfare.

Russ, NCNE

[Capn]

Noriaki, My earlier &quot;sarcastic&quot; post was more to someone who said something earlier. But thanks anyways. :) I can accept the views of those who do not agree with me. I'm not some hardcore
&quot;bible thumper.&quot; But sometimes the words of those attacking christianity get to me more than they should. I have a very personal conviction, and as much as I'd like everybody to have faith it is their desicion to make and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Personally I'm more of the kind of person who lives their life the way they think they should and tries to help others. Some people would be surprised to know the percentage of christians who *aren't* the kind that seems to be hated the most. Just my thoughts.

But just on the topic of this thread originally. I can't imagine marrying someone, who wasn't christian. It may happen that I fall in love with someone who isn't but only time will tell. Besides all you nonchristian guys should stay away from christian women (more chances for me hehe :))

The theory of evolution has it's missing links, too (pun! woo!).

[Total Refected Power]

How do you become &quot;Born Again&quot;? What happened to you before this? Do you just proclaim it? DO you believe in a strict constructionist view of the Bible (ie Adam and Eve were real)?

Thanks.

[Napalm381]

<< The theory of evolution has it's missing links >>

As opposed to creationism, which has no factual links at all.

[Capn]

ICyourNipple, I don't believe in the standard Creationist theory, yet I am christian. Have I trumped your argument? Besides ask any christian what their faith resides on. Money says it *isn't* going to be &quot;my faith is based on the idea that God created the universe and the world as we know it some 6000 years ago in 6 (24hour) days.&quot; If you want to have a serious discussion I am more than happy to do so.

[SKiller]

Bobtist


<< You're putting the word &quot;better&quot; in my mouth. I never said &quot;better.&quot; I'm no better than the next guy. Different because my sins are paid for, and yours can be, too. >>


Except that your pov is that being &quot;saved&quot; is prefferable to being a non-believer. This implies that you *are* better. There's no way around it, holding any belief means assuming that those who hold it are better then those who don't.;)

A man named Nicodemus had a similar question, TRP.

Jesus answered him and said this:

&quot;For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Sond of God.&quot;

So it's pretty simple. I see the recurring theme as &quot;Believe.&quot; Once you believe that Christ is who he said he was, you have been born-again.

[ICyourNipple]

capn,

you are far from trumping my argument. if you refuse to take this part of the bible literally, then why would you take any other part of it literally? what it gets down to is the bible is just a fairy tale, no better than a religion i could write up with a few drunk friends.

enlighten me then, what is your faith based on? fear of death? inability to think for oneself? clue me in.

[Isla]

....which means most Catholics are born again all along, we just make up the Spanish, Italian, and Irish ones...

:D

[Total Refected Power]

OK, your Born Again. Then don't you have to follow that up with actions. Grace and humility and love for fellow man. Or is just enough to believe and go on your merry way.

[Capn]

Nippleman,
I see you don't want to have a serious discussion, that's ok. But weak flamebait just makes you look the fool.

[Total Refected Power]

ISLA's right. If you believe this all along why can't I be &quot;born&quot; just once.

Well if you believe in Christ, chances are you would want to follow that up with actions of love towards him... God takes you where you are, but refuses to leave you there.

Addendum about Catholics:

I know lots of born-again Catholics. They often get a bad rap because they are misunderstood, and also because as the largest Christian denomination, they naturally have a larger number of people who are &quot;pew warmers&quot; who just go to church and say they are Catholic even though they believe not. All churches have this, just a per capita relation.

[BoberFett]

Nipple

You seem to have completely missed something. Faith is not based on anything. Faith stands by itself, not requiring any justifications.

[UG]

Atheists never have to be born again; they get it right, the first time.

Only the confused must re-invent themselves philosophically to suit their specific emotional vulnerabilities. Otherwise, why mess with what 'god' made you in the first place.

Being born again is all about vanity: miraculous re-invention.

Convenient, warm, fuzzy feeling.

Oh c'mon, everybody has redefined themselves at one point or another. Remember when Micheal Jackson was cool? Oh yeah:). Society redefines itself constantly, but there's been one definition that hasn't changed for millenia.

[UG]

boobtit;

Trick &amp; treat. That's what it's all about. Your analysis was pedestrian, at best.

[BoberFett]

UG

Hardly. The core of atheists beliefs - that there is no God and the universe is just one colossal mistake - remains. But the atheist belief of the means by which we arrived at the point we are now changes constantly.

[Napalm381]

<< But the atheist belief of the means by which we arrived at the point we are now changes constantly. >>

Yes, it changes, due to increased scientific knowledge and FACTS based on logic, evidence, and reasoning. It does not change as much as it is refined.

[BoberFett]

Many people are entirely too dependent on logic, evidence, and reasoning. They're crutches along the same lines as blind faith.

Oh well, maybe I'm just better at math...

It's all about truth, that's what it comes down to. What is real, and what is not. Fuzzy feelings are kinda' neat, but I don't base my life on an emotion; I get fuzzy feelings when I listen to music, or when I liked that girl in the 6th grade (sweet Jessica). It's a personal thing, you have to look at real evidences and make a decision on what you believe... Even atheists decide at some point, &quot;Hey, I'm an atheist.&quot;

Ok, I'm going to bed. 8:30 comes early (why did I want an 8:30??) :) Have fun, everyone. Keep it civil.

[Zucchini]

Oh great, rational thought it bad:P Too many unreconcilable problems with religion:P As to why you can't have a relationship witha born again? Something in their mind just snaps when they feel the need to add &quot;born again&quot; to their religion.

[UG]

BooberFete;

Speaking from experience, Atheists don't think the Universe is a mistake, we think the Mistake is the Original Presumption of the theists.

Atheists don't have beliefs of the 'true means' of our origin, we have provisional theories. The fact that our theories change means that your Original Presumption still has not been corroborated by examination by non-believers.

That means your beliefs follow from your own motivations, not Nature's. Atheists know more about Nature than believers ever imagined.

[UG]

BooberFete;

<...Many people are entirely too dependent on logic, evidence, and reasoning...>

Yeah, they should trust in the Tooth Fairy as the source of all enlightnement.

Right.

Science's stressing of logic, evidence and reasoning arose from the obvious need (to some, anyway) to move beyond the historical dependence on what makes you feel good in order to find what is actually Nature's character.

[qacwac]

to all: I am sorry for the bad experiences you all have had with those proclaiming to be Christians. However not I nor anyone else can make people quit calling themselves &quot;Christains&quot;. Instead of thinking bad of Christians I would urge you to see what the Bible says about Christians and then determine whether that person is a true Christian or not.

I am curious what the difference between &quot;born again Christian&quot; and Christain is? John 3:3 &quot;Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.&quot; That is what Jesus said. Every true Christian has been born again. (I suppose it is possible for them to not know this terminology) That does not mean I went through some physical rebirth but spiritual rebirth. So it is impossible to be a Christain and not be born again. Now with this I do believe that there are many who claim Christianity and are not saved and there are many who claim to &quot;be born again&quot; and are not saved and there are many who claim both and are not saved.

Some of you all say that you were raised Christian. Christianity is a work in the heart. You cannot be raised it. I was raised IN a Christian home. An actual good one. This did not, does not, and never will make me a Christian. My parents took me to church (not the best churches though) and lived according to the word of God (not perfectly, no one does). Perhaps this is what some of you had. For me, this made Christianity more appealing because I saw my neighbors on drugs and cussing and running around with no purpose and I also saw in contrast what my parents had and still have. Now if this is what you all were talking about then okay but if not then you were not raised in a Christian home. Going to church does not constitute a Christian home. It constitutes a church going home. A Christian home is (as the above mentioned states) one where the members are Christians, i.e. born again, disciples of Christ, obedient to His commands,

My faith is based on the gift of God. &quot;For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.&quot; Ephesians 2:8,9

That is why I am no better than anyone else. God has shown mercy on me apart from anything I had, am currently, or will ever do.

to Napalm381: There is the fact that Jesus, God the Son, was taught and believed the OT. So I have no trouble at all accepting the same thing that Jesus did during His human life. This may mean nothing to you but it's huge to me.

Many have a knowledge of God and Christ and are monotheistic, this is not salvation. This is the same thing that the demons possess. (James 2:19 &quot;You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.&quot;)

to Total Reflected Power: being born again is when God shows saving faith and grace to someone through Jesus Christ His Son and makes the individual a &quot;new creature&quot; 2 Corinthians 5:17 Before this I sought my own glory, and did not love God. (&quot;For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.&quot; 1 John 5:3) Yes, I proclaim it to the best of my ability in my words and deeds. Yes, again. I believe all that the Bible affirms is the inspired word of God, innerant, and sufficient. Adam and Eve lived.

Sorry this is so unorganized.

Well that is my understanding with the light that I have been given.

[~zonker~]

About relationships (the original question)

I think it dosen't matter too much if both people have religious tolerance, respecting the other persons beliefs. If you can have an open honest discussion about your beliefs without starting a fight then chances are good that it will not be a problem.

I too, find what many organized religions claim as the truth to be contradictory with what I read in the Bible. Even worse, I find that a majority of the people attending a given church do not 'live' the faith and message they hear on Sunday. They wind up God on Sunday. Sorry, just my observations....

[~zonker~]

UG...

there you go, acting like Jesus again ;)

How well do you understand nature? Can you tell when the next earthquake will be? How about the next hurricane? Can you tell when your dog is going to take a dump? I think we're all fairlt uninformed, no matter how smart we think we are.

[UG]

My sense of the matter is that those who publicly speak of their personnal relationship to 'god' have not found it, since they still search for the community's corroboration of its existence.

Oxymoron: Public personal relationship.

Who's confused?

[UG]

<...How well do you understand nature?...>

Only as well as Nature, as revealed by Einstein and Heisenberg, permits.

[~zonker~]

UG...

yes there are many who are still seeking that relationship but claim more than they have experienced. I find that there are many who are sincere and have experienced a true revelation of the devine. If you assume all who testify of their experience as insincere or confused, well there is a term for that .... prejudice. Perhaps you are so certain that your view is the only view that is possible, the arrogant lack of tolerance is a better term? Maybe you should change your signature...

[BoberFett]

Ugh

<< Only as well as Nature, as revealed by Einstein and Heisenberg, permits >>

Almost, but not quite. It's only as well as your logic, evidence and reasoning will hold up. Anything beyond that is just a wild ass guess, and equally as asinine as any belief in the supernatural.

When I say that some people are too reliant upon those three things, I mean that some are so blinded by science that they refuse to even acknowledge that which they can't see or touch. There are phenomena which science has yet to explain that are too quickly written off by these &quot;pure scientists&quot; as mumbo jumbo. Unfortunately for them it doesn't make these phenomona disappear as they might like, since they only demonstrate the limits of current knowledge. It's just easier to call people names. If you can't beat 'em, ridicule 'em. That seems to be your motto, and it points to a severe insecurity in your own belief system.

[NikPreviousAcct]

oh god...



must.... resist...... MUST............

[qacwac]

I forgot to answer the question. As earlier stated the Bible forbids it. That's from the Christian point of view. (mine atleast, I assume it's possible to not believe this and be a true Christian)
Here is just something I would like to make known. You may not believe this but the reason Christians witness is out of love. It is because God commands me to and I do not desire to know that anyone is going to experience eternal punishment seperated from God. That's honestly the only reasons I ever say anything about Christianity. Love. I'm serious. Now if soemone I know asks me not to bring it up then I probably won't and I don't just go around telling everyone they are going to hell but the reason is love.

[SuperGroove]

I'm a born again Christian, in the respect that I reaffirmed my faith. I am less naive now, and am discovering what God wants me to do on my own, with out being force fed. I used to panic about gonig to hell, but now I feel like I know I'm going to go...I don't even worry about it. I haven't been to church in a year, and I'm not the least bit guilty. Church is fake anyways.

[pidge]

I think it common sense. You can not get married if your partner and you do not share the following three desires and beliefs:

1)Religion. Both couples must share the same religion if they are dedicated to it. Otherwise it can not work out. It doesn't matter if one person is a Born Again Christian or whatever religion they might be. Both couples need to be the same religion.

2)Children. Both couples must want to or not want to have kids. If one person really wants children and the other person doesn't, it will leave a big void which will really cause problems in the marriage.

3)Forgot what the third thing was.

[jhu]

boberfett, what do you refer to?

[UG]

~zonker~;

You may define it as prejudice, I define it as differentiation: what need for a private relationship to be made public if it isn't lacking in emotionally satisfying substance and so requires outside, public confirmation?

BooberFete;

<...I mean that some are so blinded by science that they refuse to even acknowledge that which they can't see or touch...>

You demonstrate your total lack of comprehension of Science as a process, and a philosophy.

[Regine]

Pidge,
I believe the third is sexual preference :P

As far as the whole religious debate - this physical anthropologist is gonna stay out of it ;)

[BiggieN]

I'm a christian and i just feel the urge to say something now. church is not a requirement. you do not need to go to church to be a christian. you choose to go to church or not. being born again means that your old self has died and a new person is born. Faith is just whether or not you trust. some people lack trust others have more trust. as you progress as a christian you gain more and more trust just as you would with your real friends or coworkers/classmates/family. you progress as a christian by spending time with God. now i have seen some &quot;bad&quot; christians in my time. i have seen evangelists force the bible down people's throats. i have been on the other side. it disgusts me that these evangelists continually attack normal people with the bible and everything, UNTIL i heard this great story from my pastor.

This missionary/evangelist was in the subway trying to share with this mother and child. When the missionary was starting, the mother blurted out and screamed &quot;why do you Christians feel the need to force your beliefs on other people. noone wants to hear about your religion! Why can't you all just leave us alone?!? The missionary was stunned. She was scared. She never had someone scream and yell at her before. Then she had a thought. She asked the mother &quot;How would you feel if your son started calling me Mommy?&quot; The mother replied that she would not like it at all. in fact, she would be totally mad and angry if her child started calling someone else mommy. Then the missionary replied &quot;That's exactly why i have to share about Jesus with you. You are calling someone else Father when God is the true Father. i have to tell you the truth because you are not acknowledging the truth.

anyways, the story was a lot better when someone else was telling it and not me. i hope this helps someone out there.

[Moonbeam]

Things that go bump in the night.

[UG]

BiggieN;

<... it disgusts me that these evangelists continually attack normal people...>

Thank you for confirming that we normal people shouldn't have to listen to the Witnessing tendencies of non-normals. ;)

:D

[BiggieN]

funny how noone ever reads my whole statement...;)

[UG]

Funny, or telling? ;)

:)

[BiggieN]

and anyways..we aren't normal! WE ARE CHRISTIANS!

[jhu]

i'm a satanist. what's your point?

[UG]

Yep. You're either normal or abnormal. :)

A rose, by any other name... :)

[BiggieN]

well, if i can't get you into heaven, then i hope you enjoy hell. i hope that you would go to heaven with us though. Pm or email me if you guys would ever like to go to heaven. Jesus is free. maybe i should post this in hot deals...But seriously though, if anyone would like to know more, i'll be more than happy to help you out with any questions about Christianity.

[mosdef]

I pity you Isla; you joined a religion that tells you your interests and opinions are incorrect, and is able to do this only because it is more established than other religions.

-mosdef

[NikPreviousAcct]

lol @ everyone



didn't someone say that they didn't want to start a holy war? Needless to say, it always happens. Religious threads are how I pumped my number of posts up, and subsequently ruined my reputation in the process. :|

I'm what Christianity would call born again. I've learned (like many Christians still need to) that other people don't agree, and that's okay. Good grief.




Satanist, eh? I respect your choice. Have you ever read the biography of Zander Anton Lefabvre (or however you spell that), the head of the Church of Satan?


I have MANY friends who aren't born again. I have some friends who are *gasp* mormon. big deal. Some of my friends are/were satanists. We get along just fine. Actually, we get along very well. As long as they're not strapping pipe bombs to neighborhood cats, I pretty much get along with anyone in real life (believe it or not --probably not, though, with the way I've carried myself around here).


TRP
it's all good, bud.

[UG]

BiggieN;

Heaven, hell; it's all the same: unsubstantiated speculation -- monsters in the closet.

:)

[NikPreviousAcct]

BoogerN
You can't get people into heaven. You never will be able to, either.

[jhu]

As long as they're not strapping pipe bombs to neighborhood cats

i guess we just can't get along, eh?

[Zucchini]

Oh great, get people to &quot;pretend&quot; to beleive something through a self serving motivation:P An all powerful god would not be vengeful enough to allow hell to exist. Of course thats just one of the problems...

[BiggieN]

well, i don't force anyone to listen to my beliefs, you are free to leave at any time. i've actually never talked to anyone that really did not want to be there...i don't follow you around or stalk you or scream at you. i normally just thank you for giving me whatever time you gave me. now, RED DAWN, its not really arrogance, its the truth. We do think we are right and the non-christians are wrong. we are not saying otherwise, in fact i'll say it again. WE ARE RIGHT AND THE NON-CHIRTIANS ARE WRONG. if i go up to you and tell you that bush is gonna win or gore is gonna win, then fine you can tell me shut up and go away, but if i tell you that clinton is president then what? he is the president. no one has to like him or follow him, but he is the president. its kinda the same with christianity. its ok that you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins and you don't accept his gift. i personally won't like you any more or less becasue you choose not to believe.

[Pennstate]

Isn't every baptism a rebirth theologicaly speaking?

[BiggieN]

i don't get anyone into heaven...maybe i should rephrase it. i just tell you where the ticket booth is. you gotta go get your own tickets. Jesus is the only way to get you into heaven. if you feel the urge to attack me personally fine, FFMCOBALT, i have nothing against you, and i have done nothing to you that might cause you to hate me. i'm just wondering why you chose to attack me?

[mosdef]

BiggieN - I can prove Bill Clinton is president. Can you prove that Christianity isn't pure bullsh!t?

-mosdef

[BiggieN]

how can you prove bill clinton is the president?

[UG]

Use the Farce, Luke. ;)

[NikPreviousAcct]

BooberN
I didn't attack you. I don't hate you. But, since you took those extreme views, then yes, I think I shall attack you and extremely dislike you.

You're stupid.

I extremely dislike you.



Reguardless if you're a Christian or not, you're still a moron. If you're going to debate, get your facts right and present yourself correctly the first time around.



Even I'VE learned that one.

[mosdef]

The person who receives the most electoral votes becomes president until the next election.
Bill Clinton received more electoral votes than any other presidential candidate in the last election.
The next election has not happened yet.
Therefore Bill Clinton is president.

Not very tough... now you go prove that Christianity thing. And please, please don't make me use the words circular logic in my next post. Thanks.

-mosdef

[~zonker~]

I find it troubling as well, the way many Christians feel the need to express anger and an expression of their perception of God's wrath when confronted with disbelief.

Using fear and anger is not very representative of what the gospels preach about being Christian. If we are to preach to all nations, fine! Go and preach, but don't use judgement and fear as an incentive to spread the message and share the faith.

[Logroot3]

Jesus said that the two greatest commandments were to love the Lord with all of your heart, mind, and soul as well as to love others as as you love yourself(Mark 12:28-31).
Is not this the best way to go? If there is a creator, is not loving him and devoting yourself to him the best way? I don't think that anyone can argue that at the deepest core of our soul, we are selfish beings. Not one of us can ever be totally pure. So, isn't loving others as much as ourselves also the best way, since we are in love with ourselves? We may not be capable fully of this, but is this not something to strive for?

My point is this. We, as Christians are not perfect. Not all of us are going to give off the right vibes all of the time. But the fact remains that what Christ preached is still the best way! Is it an excuse to say that I'm not going to follow Christ because his followers stink? Of course not. Just because his followers aren't perfect, doesn't mean that Jesus Christ should be blamed. Jesus died to save the world and to right the wrong once and for all. Is not that the noblest and most loving of acts?

I would like to end by apologizing if we as Christians have come off harshly towards those who do not actively believe. It is with the greatest conviction that I say that God does love you regardless of how His children come off. I don't want to &quot;shove&quot; my beliefs upon you, but rather I just want to accentuate that Christ is about love of the deepest kind. He doesn't want forced belief, He wants willing belief. I write this to you as a stranger, but a stranger who wants you to know that Jesus is the center of our faith, not the people.

[NikPreviousAcct]

BullshiitN,
You're the kind that TotalRefectedPower is talking about. You give Christians a bad name.






SHUT THE FVCK UP!









Good god, boy, I'm supposed to be on YOUR side, but you're too much of a pompous ass for even ME to join you.

[Moonbeam]

Forty or fifty thousand years or so ago, the bicameral brained biped, people, developed speech and the ability to abstract. The experience of pleasure and pain, terror and security combined with language lead to polarity, the notion of good and bad, right and wrong. The new ability to name the bad and attach that meaning to children through punishment and putdowns began the inculcation and perpetuation of self loathing culture. The direct perception of a reality without name (paridise in the Garden of Eden)was replaced by ideas and abstractions of experience, knowledge and shame.

Throughout time, in every place and in every culture there arise individuals who pierce the illusion and lie of culture and discover their own true nature. The words and advise of these few who discover what our culture calls God, form the detritus of religion.

It may be that that those of us who have passed beyond the absurd notion that any one of these myriad paths is the true one and have, therefore, rejected them, all will begin to recognize the communalities that are also manifest, the suggestion that we are and can become more than we think, and begin the serious work on that last unknown fronteer, the psyche of man.

[mosdef]

Right on FFMCobalt. I have no problem with people believing in Christianity, but when they preach it as fact when they have no proof nor logic as to such an absurd statement it is very irritating.

-mosdef

[jhu]

ffmcobalt, remember rexbo?

[NikPreviousAcct]

<translated>

&quot;I'm right. You're wrong.&quot;

</translated>







hehehe :) ;)

[BiggieN]

well, i have no problems with personal attacks. i have many faults. i do make mistakes. its ok, cuz i'm not perfect. i'm not pompous. i was just sharing. haha, i totally forgot that this is about relationships. why do i give christians a bad name? i said that you are free to not listen to me at anytime. but since you have asked me to stop talking to you, i will. thank you. i guess i made a mistake in my typing and thought processes for that one post about helping people get into heaven so i am sorry.

[NikPreviousAcct]

jhu
name sounds familiar.

care to enlighten me?

[mosdef]

I'll let one of your previous posts answer why people said certain things about you...



<< WE ARE RIGHT AND THE NON-CHIRTIANS ARE WRONG >>

[BiggieN]

anyways, to help this guy out, what bobtist said was correct

For marital relationships, the Bible says 'Do not be unequally yoked to unbelievers.'

simply because it is easier for you to fall than to help. now if there was jsut a friend relationship involved then by all means go for it and help them out.

[mosdef]

By what I say, you are brainwashed. Now show me that the Bible is any more correct than anything I have to say.

-mosdef

[BiggieN]

to answer someone elses question, the bible is one of the most accurate literal texts in history. there are times articles abotu the validity of the bible. obviously i do not have them but i'm sure someone has them.

[NikPreviousAcct]

pompous, arrogant, and ignorant.





hmmm....








I think it's he's actually Lozer. Oh, wait, he's not saying something like &quot;my Bible converts 109 people in 11 seconds&quot;

[BiggieN]

the translations are accurate to the original text. i remember the article stating that the bible was more acurrate than Homer's the Oddysey

[mosdef]

It's great that the facts are accurate, but commandments are opinions not facts. Whenever anyone tells you to do anything there are those that agree with this and those that don't. So what is your point in mentioning that it is an accurate literal text.

-mosdef

[BiggieN]

i'm not ignorant. you are free to believe that though

[NikPreviousAcct]

BoogerN is the smartest man on earth.









Now, see, someone could read that statement, turn around, and say &quot;I know he is. I read it in this article once that said he was the smartest man on earth.&quot;

Yup, that makes it true all right...







. o O *(I can't believe this... I'm attacking a Christian. A dork none the less, but a Christian. Isn't that bad or something?)*

[NikPreviousAcct]

<< you are free to believe that though >>


REALLY?? Thank you!!! Thank you so much, sir!!!! What would I ever have done without you??









--probably still be right. ;)

[BiggieN]

sorry, if i did offend you all. but i guess there aren't any cold hard facts that i got. i'll see what i can find for you. theres a binder of articles from various reputable journalism that someone has. i'll try to get it for everyone. it ranges from times to scientific american. good thing i got you all to keep my brain juices flowing. this debating stuff is hard. i'm glad i clicked on this thread. maybe we should start a new one so we don't mess up total's thread

[BiggieN]

i actually like the name BoogerN. i was dressed up as a booger many years ago for halloween.

[pen^2]

<< now, RED DAWN, its not really arrogance, its the truth. We do think we are right and the non-christians are wrong. we are not saying otherwise, in fact i'll say it again. WE ARE RIGHT AND THE NON-CHIRTIANS ARE WRONG >>


well, its a truth to me, not truth to you. if you say someone i dont belive that exists a fater than you owe me an appology cuz you are insulting my REAL father. with that snobby attitude of yours, you will NEVER convince me that you are right. why cant you lead an examplarary life so people can learn from you and grow to belive your religion? what i see in the VAST majority of christians is far from your ideals. if you dont wanna be called 'a bible pusher', then dont use your belifs as an established fact in discussions. why the hell you think christianity is so special? its just another religion. oh, maybe it is special, cuz its one of them primitive religions relying on fear to spread its power. sure, i will burn in hell if i dont beliveing god, my stinkin ass.

[BiggieN]

you real father is still your father..this is a different kinda Father but i will apologize for my snobby attitude. it didn't come out like that in my head, but now that i read it it does come out as snobby. sorry.

[BiggieN]

nope, no verses just scientific discoveries. i wasn't gonna put it in this thread. this will be long gone and forgotten. i wasn't prepared for any Christian threads tonite. i was expecting that simpsons one earlier though.

[Logroot3]

I can't prove to you concretely that Christianity is the hard, real truth. There's evidence for and there's evidence against. It's all very subjective. BUT, BROTHERMAN has it right that in order to &quot;win&quot; people to our beliefs, we must be exemplary in what we believe. We must live it out to the best we can. Some of you want 100% evidence. I apologize, I can't give it to you, cause I don't have it. I'm not sure anyone has it. All I can offer you is my friendship that is based upon that love that I feel the Lord continuously gives to me. I know that this is probably no where enough for you to choose to follow Jesus Christ, but it's a start.

[Shuxclams]

[/b]Warm Asses

this friday night
the Mexican girls at the Catholic carnival
look especially good
their husbands are in the bars
and the Mexican girls look young
hawk-nosed with cruel strong eyes,
asses warm in tight bluejeans
they have been taken somehow,
their husbands are tired of those warm asses
and the young Mexican girls walk with their children,
there is real sorrow in their cruel strong eyes,
as they remember nights when their handsome men-
not now any longer handsome-
said such beautiful things to them
beautiful things they will never hear again
and under the moon and in the flashing of the
carnival lights
I see it all and I stand quietly and mourn for them.
they see me looking-
the old goat is looking at us
he's looking at our eyes;
they smile at each other, talk, walk off together,
laugh, look at me over their shoulders.
I walk over to a booth
put a dime on number eleven and win a chocolate cake
with 13 colored suckers stuck in the
top
that's fair enough for an ex-Catholic
and admirer of warm and young and
no-longer used
mournful Mexican asses.

Charles Bukowski - Burning in Water Drowning in Flame.







SHUX

[BiggieN]

i don't like the term &quot;win&quot; them. but i do agree that we have be examples. that's about it. the best eveidence i can give people in real life is using others as examples.

[BiggieN]

glad to see shux is showing up...next thing you know he'll call me a nef again...Love ya shux!

[pen^2]

appology accepted :) and now that i got my message across i'd like to tell ya i dont have any beef with christians. your belif is precious to you and i respect your enthusiasm, as long as it doesnt happen to collide with my own belifs.

[BiggieN]

thanks brotherman.

[Shuxclams]

<< next thing you know he'll call me a nef again >>



Actually I think Red covered most of the bases, but if you really need attention here you go.......[/b]NEF!:D



SHUX

[BiggieN]

glad to see shux is watching my back...hahahaha

[NikPreviousAcct]

ugh... I'm getting sick.

[Shuxclams]

<< ugh... I'm getting sick. >>



In need of an exorsism?





SHUX

[Shuxclams]

<< We've had to deal with Rextroll and Paltroll and I don't think we are in
much of a mood to hear anymore about it. >>



Don't forget the famous ><FISH>, and a dozen other zealots





SHUX

[Isla]

<< I pity you Isla; you joined a religion that tells you your interests and opinions are incorrect, and is able to do this only because it is more established than other religions. >>



Don't worry, mosdef... I was able to break free from that group. The nice thing is that I still have the basic faith I started out with, a simple faith that does not need to be impressed upon anyone else. ;) Remember, faith and religion are not the same thing.

Moonbeam: You are always the voice of reason in the wilderness for me in these threads.

[Eug]

<< Remember when Micheal Jackson was cool? >>

Heheh... no. :P

















(And yes, I did live thru that hellish era, unless you're talking about when he was a little kid.)

[Total Refected Power]

Oh boy. Didn't mean to spawn this. But here are some extra thoughts:

1. If you believe, than you believe. I don't think a distinction is necessary for &quot;when&quot; you had an experience. I guess I don't get this &quot;born again&quot; concept. If you it prompts you to do good acts then enjoy.

2. I am a scientist still marvel at the complexity and beauty of life. It is simply amazing how mechanisms work at the molecular level. For me, this does not disprove the existence of God but merely supports it. It seems to be too perfect for chance.

[Athanasius]

I would surmise that the large number of seemingly provocative and inflammatory replies by both &quot;born-againers&quot; and &quot;non-born-againers&quot; demonstrates why relationships between the two are so difficult. The problem is that both your hyper-fundamentalist born-againer and your strict materialistic rationalist are trapped in excessively left brain linear thinking that is its own language barrier.

When one gets stuck in such thinking, one interprets the opponent's statements in the worst possible light while insisting that one's own statements be interpreted in the best possible light. Hence, one's own statements are &quot;accurate reflections of relaity&quot; while the opponent's statements are &quot;personal, pigheaded attacks.&quot;

No relationship can flower in such soil. I am a born-again Christian. Despite the &quot;language barrier&quot; between myself and people like Red Dawn and UG, I think we have managed to remain civil.

Still, to suggest that being &quot;born-again&quot; implies a particular deficiency in the individual who experiences it would obviously offend most born-againers. It doesn't offend me. I know I am weird :) Despite my weirdness, I think I have demonstrated many times here why theism in general is by no means irrational.

Consider the following from a previous thread. Look at the building blocks of this material universe that some limit themselves to:

Example 1: How can someone with a genuine case of Dissociative Identity Disorder have different brain wave patterns for each of their different personalities? Even in cases of extreme stress, a person's basic brain wave patterns do not change. But, if personality is ultimate nonlocal/non physical, then one person with multiple personalities could do what is, from a purely physical perspective, impossible. Hence, personality is greater than matter, even though we cannot scientifically prove personality unless we try to reduce it to a mere by product of the brain. Yet people with DID would tend to challenge such a reduction.

CONCLUSION: personality is seemingly greater than matter.


Example 2: According to our current understanding of physics (at least as best as I understand it), every region of space has different fields composed of different waves. When physicists calculate the minimum energy a wave can possess, they find that every cubic centimeter of space contains more energy than the total energy of matter in the known universe.

CONCLUSION: under current scientific paradigms, energy is seemingly greater than matter.


Example 3: Consider Bohm's experiment with plasma. Plasma is a gas containing a high density of electrons and positive ions. When in a plasma, electrons stop behaving like individuals and start behaving as part of a larger and connected whole. Although their individual movements appeared random, vast numbers of electrons were able to perform tasks that were surprisingly well organized. Like a living creature, the plasma regenerated itself and enclosed impurities in a wall much like a living body encloses a foreign substance in a cyst. Bohm was so amazed by these qualties that he had the impression that the electron sea was alive. His experiments with the beavior of electrons in metals confirmed this &quot;communicative&quot; ability of &quot;mindless&quot; electrons.

CONCLUSION: Interconnected, mindful order is seemingly greater than individual randomness, though both exist.


If personality is greater than matter, and energy is greater than matter, and interconnected, mindful order is greater than individual randomness, then why is belief in a non-material, universal Mind/Logos so &quot;weak-minded&quot;? Would it be less offensive to you if I used more obviously scientific terminology and called it &quot;The Implicate Order behind all other implicate and explicit orders&quot;?

Is there something intrinsically irrational about presupposing a mind behind the universe? And, if so, since we are the highest life form that we can scientifically observe, is it so irrational to assume that in some respects our minds would have the ability or potential to &quot;connect&quot; with the Universal Mind? And if one did, even in the most &quot;seeing through a glass darkly&quot; kind of way, wouldn't that constitute a &quot;born again&quot; experience?

The &quot;arrogance&quot; in some claiming such an experience is only arrogance if one acts like one had it because of some innate superiority. But it is just as arrogant to take a position that anyone who has had a born-again experience is some type of hypocrite or fool.

[Noriaki]

I'm sorry..I didn't want to comment on this subject again, but this is going to damn far:

<< I mean that some are so blinded by science that they refuse to even acknowledge that which they can't see or touch. There are phenomena which science has yet to explain that are too quickly written off by these &quot;pure scientists&quot; as mumbo jumbo. >>

That is absolute bullsh*t. There may be fools that think like that. But there are alot of regligious fools that try to shove their beliefs down other peoples throats. And all of you &quot;good&quot; christians are trying to prove that not all are like that.
Well I am in a very strongly scientific discipline, and I would like to point out that any *GOOD* scientist considers himself to be in the business of proving old theories wrong and/or trying to explain things that have not yet been explained. Scientists attempt to refine our understanding of how the planet (and the universe at whole) has evolved over the millenia it has existed. If we don't understand something, we attempt to explain it. That's what scientists do.
To claim that all scientists pass off what they don't understand as &quot;mumbo jumbo&quot; as you so elegantly put it is crap, sure there are some, but not all. That's as bad as us saying &quot;all christians are bible thumping idiots that try to force their belifs down everyone's throats,&quot; well is that true?
Things that 200 years ago seemed like magic have since been explained with Math, Physics, Chemistry and/or whatever other science you like. And they are working on explaining more things we don't understand. Maybe to you those explanations are ridiculous becuase everyone that's intelligent knows &quot;God did it&quot;, well viewpoints like that are why christians piss so many people off.
I'm sure there are christians that think like that, and christians that understand different people have different beliefs, does being a christian put you in a single big bin? I don't think so, and I doubt you do, so why does being a scientist put me in a single bin?

Anyways, I'll thank you kindly not to make general statements about scientists.


Edit: Just a sidenote, I can't stand people that don't think for themselves, to those of you who are religious but choose to examine the beliefs and choose them for yourself instead taking the whole pacakge and saying these are my belifs tied up in a nice little bundle you can read them out of a book too. GOOD FOR YOU GUYS!!!! That's the way it should be. You are free to believe in what you want, you believe in god fine and well, that doesn't mean you have to agree with every single point that someone else who believes in go thinks. Believe it or not, the people that wrote the bible were humans as well and it's open to their interpretation of events, their faith and beliefs and hell their mood at the time. They happened to live at the same time and meet your God, so they have been extra blessed, they are still humans.

And to those of you who think they (or yourselves) are better than others humans because they met Him and believed, well you can shove it right up your holy hole.

[BoberFett]

But Noriaki, if you weren't listening, people like UGH and Red Dawn do say that

<< &quot;all christians are bible thumping idiots that try to force their belifs down everyone's throats,&quot; >>

Obviously not all scientists are so closed minded, and neither are all Christians. It's an unfortunate truth that the far ends of the spectrum in any argument are usually the most vocal. It gives both sides a bad and undeserved reputation.

<< Anyways, I'll thank you kindly not to make general statements about scientists. >>

Likewise about Christians.

[bluemax]

I'm going to save my breath on this one, although I will say one thing.
Of all the religions on earth, why are Christians tho most prosecuted?

Before spitting out all the &quot;easy&quot; answers of the ones you see on the street corner, or the JW's that come knocking at your door...
Why do so many people get flared up and downright ANGRY at the mere mention of God, or especially, Jesus?

If I said I was a buddhist monk, or Islamic, or whatever- you probably wouldn't think much of it. Say I follow Jesus, the Son of God, and you get all upset, thinking &quot;what a lunatic&quot;.

If that's the automatic reaction, and we humans are evil by nature...
Where do you think that thought really comes from, eh? ;)

I think I'll leave it at that. G'bye! :)

Good morning, Vietnam.

UG,

An example of a &quot;public-personal&quot; relationship is a marraige. The marraige is a public display of commitment regarding a personal, intimate relationship.

In the same way, Christians have a public demonstration of a private relationship with God. They aren't seeking approval from man.

[BoberFett]

<< I do know that a few revel in thinking of themselves as martyrs and use that as an excuse to be annoying pests. >>

You're lucky it's only the Christians harassing you. If it were a fundamental muslim, they wouldn't pester you, they'd just plant a car bomb in front of your house.


Hey, I'm kidding damnit!

;)

[yata]

All the members here in religious quandary, for you I pray.

Maybe.

[mosdef]

Isla, I am happy for you! I think it's a beautiful thing for a person to decide their beliefs and stick with them. They don't have to be based on science, reasoning, or knowledge, but they should be spawned internally. I can't stand religions which try to control and overtake, causing people to fight between what they are told is right and what they believe is right. In short, people should always listen to their inner voices when it comes to opinions and beliefs unless there is new information that has been explicitly proven to be true.

-mosdef

[VisionsUCI]

mosdef, that sounds really nice and pc, but what happens when beliefs are contrary to what is socially acceptable? beliefs that are spawned internally are subjective, and your line of argument is the type that could be used in defense of heinous &quot;moral&quot; crimes such as murder. so, would it be okay to cling to whatever beliefs you have, as long as they don't infringe on other people..? even that sounds too subjective. i know that there is an ultimate moral standard out there, whether people choose to accept it or not.

[luv2chill]

I find it interesting that no one has responded to Athanasius' comments in this thread, which I found to be a breath of fresh air.

Human beings have the unfortunate tendency to be so convinced that they alone have the right idea that they vehemently defend that idea and furthermore close themselves off to the possibility of any refinement in or (gasp!) reversal of their position. Humans don't like to be wrong--that's for sure. ;)

Not that I don't espouse having opinions and standing up for them... but a little tolerance and open-mindedness among people would really go a long way to making life here better for everyone.

I'll again pass on this link because I've found its essays to be very insightful... and not the least bit judgemental.

http://www.religioustolerance.org

l2c

[mosdef]

I was fully thinking of that, but I didn't know how to word it. I meant beliefs, not actions. Also, I was focusing more on Isla's case, where she ridiculously had to destroy her CDs because they didn't comply with another's opinions.

-mosdef

[Isla]

mosdef...

Can you believe I was ever that STUPID????

Heh heh, I look back on those days and wonder what was I thinking?

OK, I wasn't thinking. Mr Isla has a cute butt. ;)

[jhu]

luv2chill, good site. go humanists!

[Russ]

Athanasius,

Thank you for your insights, but in the future, can you please arrive sooner? I had to wade though a huge pile of belligerent, bigoted crap to get to the only decent post in this thread.

Russ, NCNE
Of WEAK mind, since I happen to be a Christian.

[Russ]

<< Looking for a reason to be offended will definitely blind you to what is trying to be said by some of us. >>



I didn't have to look very hard. I'll tell you what: I'll pit my &quot;weak&quot; mind (your assumption about anyone who believes in God) against yours, or any other Christian hating bigot who feels like taking me on.

Russ, NCNE

[wviperw]

man, you guys generalize way too much about Christians. But you have good reason to. So many people today call themselves a &quot;christian&quot;, and then don't live it. I hate that, and I know I do it too sometimes.

You guys are wondering why Christians won't leave you alone? If they are doing it for the real reason, then they don't want to see you go to hell. They want you to praise God (the reason why were here).

But you say &quot;there is no heaven/hell&quot;. Then what are your beliefs? I don't get how you CAN'T know about God. You say your looking for truth. Well, you and I both know that we aren't going to be 100% sure that we have found it. Do you really think that your going to all of a sudden find the &quot;secret&quot; answer to the universe, while men have been looking for it for thousands of years? Since Though it makes sense for me to want to use logic to figure it out, I know that it isn't possible. But I take the things I do know (the Bible, universe,...) and mix it with a little FAITH, stir well, and there is God. No, it's not some formula though.

Red Dawn, in a sense all non-christians do hate God. Satan instills this hate, and puts it toward Christians. You don't actually hate the Christian so much as the ideas that he is trying to portray. And I know you say that &quot;we can have our beliefs and you can have yours&quot;, but that isn't the way it works. How can EVERYBODY have different beliefs but all be right?

Thanks

[Russ]

<< Also, please point out to me where I assumed that all who were Christian were of weak mind? >>



How many quotes would you like? I could give you pages, but here's the most recent:



<< The truth is that you are just a weak individual who refuses to open his eyes to reality that this Jesus Crap is just a bunch of Hocus Pocus. >>



Now, I know that you claim that this is directed at only one person. But, that copout won't work. The premise is that he's weak because of his faith in God. As you attack him, you attack all Christians, including me.



<< So you are saying that you cannot see past the rhetoric born of frustration >>



Rhetoric? Is that your code word for &quot;I'll attack and level whatever slurs I feel like, and justify it because I was frustrated&quot;? In every one of these threads you are one of the first in line to start slinging insults and making ignorant, unilateral statements about Christians as a whole based on the actions of a very tiny minority. This is BIGOTRY in every sense of the word.

Perhaps you sincerely do not believe that you are bigoted. Your words and actions demonstrate otherwise.

You are not capable of a rational discussion of Christianity without resorting to these attacks. CLEARLY, something scares the hell out of you or you wouldn't react with the level of venom that you do IN EVERY THREAD. ALL anger is fear-based and the level of anger you demonstrate makes it painfully obvious that you are terrified of something.

I'm tired of people like you, who find it perfectly acceptable to assault my beliefs without fear of repercussion. You may try to rationalize the insults and innuendo in any way you see fit. This does not alter the impact and intent of your mindless, groundless, constant and vitriolic denunciations of my Faith.

There is one premise in the Bible that I do not adhere to. When I am attacked, I don?t turn the other cheek. I will respond in kind to anyone who assumes it is acceptable to attack Christians simply because they have chosen a different belief system than you.

Russ, NCNE

[wviperw]

<< There is one premise in the Bible that I do not adhere to. When I am attacked, I don?t turn the other cheek >>



Wait a minute, I thought we were on the same page here Russ. Unless I misunderstood you, didn't you just say you don't follow the whole Bible? I know I don't follow the whole Bible all the time, but I try to ask for forgiveness when I don't.

And another thing, I am a Christian. But looking at this discussion from I guess you could call it an &quot;anti-christian&quot;, I see that we are arguing a bit to much. It just looks like were arguing for the sake of arguing now. I just encourage the Christians to stay strong and dont ruin your testimony because you get mad at someone or something. Sorry if I have done that.

PFY

[mosdef]

<< But you say &quot;there is no heaven/hell&quot;. Then what are your beliefs? I don't get how you CAN'T know about God. You say your looking for truth. Well, you and I both know that we aren't going to be 100% sure that we have found it. Do you really think that your going to all of a sudden find the &quot;secret&quot; answer to the universe, while men have been looking for it for thousands of years? Since Though it makes sense for me to want to use logic to figure it out, I know that it isn't possible. But I take the things I do know (the Bible, universe,...) and mix it with a little FAITH, stir well, and there is God. No, it's not some formula though. >>



wviperw - I guess that's the difference between me and you. You have stopped looking for the answer because you have gotten &quot;close enough&quot;, while I have not even scratched the surface of the question of a supreme being. I think that the fact that you have already decided is a travesty. I am in fact agnostic, because I simply don't know and I will sooner live with the fact that I may never know rather than accept a religion which has proven absolutely none if its beliefs in my opinion. If you were born Hindu you would be telling me how I could not see the many Hindu Gods, it makes perfect sense, etc. How come you don't believe I am God, how do you know this beautiful world isn't my creation?

Now bow down to me. ;)

-mosdef

[Russ]

wviperw,

You may call me a bad Christian for doing so, but I will defend those of Faith against attack, just as I would defend anyone who had been assaulted the way Christians have been at this forum.

I do not, and never have, offered testimony at this BBS. This is a private matter, reserved for real life, and this is not the venue for it. But, I have always - and will continue to do so - come to the defense of those who must suffer the barrage of insults each time they have the courage to admit that they are Born Again.

Russ, NCNE

[wviperw]

I haven't stopped looking, I have just begun. Everybody, when they are born into the world they take the beliefs of the people around them (parents). That is what I have done. But eventually there comes a point when a person really starts wondering what their beliefs are. And if there isn't a point like that for the person, then that is very sad. Only in the last few years have I begun to not just be a &quot;baby fed&quot; Christian. Not someone who takes what they hear.

And have you ever noticed how Christians are more persecuted then any other religious people? I think that is because Satan knows that they are the ones that know the truth, and he wants to get them away from it. Also, it may be from just my point of view, but it seems that Christianity is the only religion that's beliefs are all true and have no REAL contradictories. Though there may be some apparent contradictories they are always proven false. In other religions I don't think they can do this, though it might look like it.

[mosdef]

<< But, I have always - and will continue to do so - come to the defense of those who must suffer the barrage of insults each time they have the courage to admit that they are Born Again. >>



Russ - I guess this is just bringing in more of my opinions, but I think that in general - considering the overwhelming popularity of Christianity in this country - Born Againers are in fact respected. I have far more respect for Born Againers than for people who seem to have no reasoning for their choice of religion other than that they were born into that religion. So in conjunction with this, I also do not think it is very courageous to admit this. For example, it would be far more courageous to admit belief in one of the many less represented religions, or a cult even.

-mosdef

[mosdef]

I think that atheists and agnostics are persecuted far more than any other belief group. Look at how popular Christianity is in this country. God is mention in the pledge of alliegence, on our coins, in almost every sports event someone thanks God, etc etc etc. Agnostics and atheists are widely viewed as heartless, beliefless, anarchists. Don't take this forum as a representation of this country or world.

-mosdef

[Russ]

<< I also do not think it is very courageous to admit this. >>



In the real world, no. But you cannot possibly read through the threads at this forum and believe that, at least here, it does not take courage.



<< For example, it would be far more courageous to admit belief in one of the many less represented religions, or a cult even. >>



See above comment in reverse. If someone admitted that they were of some esoteric, or less popular faith at this forum, and they were attacked the way Christians are, the PC Police here would be instantly crawling up the attacker's ass.

Russ, NCNE

[BiggieN]

Red Dawn,

You are taught to believe that non Chistians hate Christians.

I was never taught that. I believe that non-christians have nothing against us at all. Except for the fact that some non-christians feel that Christians are very pushy in their beliefs and force the rest of the world to believe. I wouldn't call it a hate. I would call it an intolerance for both sides.

[Russ]

<< Man, I hope you are not doing this out of some guilty feeling of not being the Christian you think you should be Russ. >>



Yeah, that's it Red. I responded to your inane, insulting ramblings out of a sense of guilt. I'll give you this: You possess an extraordinary ability to rationalize your actions, no matter how much they degrade and humiliate others.

However, I am concerned that your obvious deep-seated anger that continually manifests itself in any discussion of Christianity, may be eating away at you until someday it possesses you completely, and you deteriorate in to nothing but incoherent gibberish.

I'd estimate that the process is 50% complete.

Russ, NCNE

[Russ]

<< Man you can be a real prick >>



I am capable only of rising to meet the ability of the opposition.

Russ, NCNE

[Russ]

<< the sight of blood makes me quesy, especially when it's my own. >>



How could you tell which part of the spillage was yours?

Russ, NCNE

[UG]

Athanasius;

<...Despite the &quot;language barrier&quot; between myself and people like Red Dawn and UG, I think we have managed to remain civil...>

We probably haven't been using the correct bait. :)


<...I think I have demonstrated many times here why theism in general is by no means irrational...>

Theism, in general, indeed is constructed of elements rationally derived. Where theism is irrational is at its very foundation where one encounters wholesale, unswerving subscription to it's most elemental unprovable: the existance of a divine designer and interventionist -- a conclusion soley based on anecdotal evidences and favored rational inferences.

<...CONCLUSION: personality is seemingly greater than matter...>

<...CONCLUSION: under current scientific paradigms, energy is seemingly greater than matter...>

Two seemingly rational conclusions that fail upon closer examination:

A rock has no personality, it has no brain. A brain is a material construct. It is a host for certain resident, energetic biochemical reactions. Without a brain's biochemical activity and biomaterial components living creatures would have the personality of a rock.

E=MC^2: Energy and matter are differing forms of the same thing; two different sides of the same coin. Matter is energy in congealed form: energy is matter in diffuse form.

Personality arises from a complex interplay between energy's diffuse and congealed forms, each no more or less special than the other. It's all energy. Everything is energy. What gives energy personality is how it oscillates between diffuse and congealed forms; energy is its own DID ( Dissociative Identity Disorder). :).


<...Like a living creature, the plasma regenerated itself and enclosed impurities in a wall much like a living body encloses a foreign substance in a cyst...>

Plasma, and its components, have the personality of a rock. That it/they may have seemingly anthropomorphic properties may be why we definitely do, since we are made of the same energy/material components only in much more complex association.

<...CONCLUSION: Interconnected, mindful order is seemingly greater than individual randomness, though both exist...>

Two sides of the same coin, both equally significant.

<...why is belief in a non-material, universal Mind/Logos so
&quot;weak-minded&quot;?..>

I say toe-may-toe, and you say toe-mah-toe; I say Energy, you say God. My philosophy says I can describe Energy only empirically. Your philosophy says you can describe God anyway you want. My philosophy is the more conservative approach. Your's is the Liberal's weak-minded convenience approach. ;)

<...Is there something intrinsically irrational about presupposing a mind behind the universe?...>

No, but it is to then elevate that presupposition to a special status that effectively causes its confusion with known fact.

:)

[UG]

<...ALL anger is fear-based...>

Thus why theists are angered when atheists' opposing opinions and preferences are stated, acted upon and defended with fortitude and determination equal to their own: fear?

Belief and faith must be similarly fear-based, thus the clinging death grip on the two commodities.

Call it a working hypothesis. :)

[gopunk]

the vast majority of born agains that i have either known, talked to, or heard of, are people who were really screwed up earlier. i think religion is good for these types of people, because it brings structure and even happiness into their lives.

[bunker]

Gopunk, did you see when this was originally posted? I don't think the orignal poster really gives a hoot any more :).

[gopunk]

<< Gopunk, did you see when this was originally posted? I don't think the orignal poster really gives a hoot any more :). >>



:(

actually, i just posted because i've never been able to post in these old ones before :)