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punjabiplaya
03-21-2009, 10:13 PM
http://www.topgear.com/us/blog/more/caparo-gets-hotter/

36K for a canopy and air conditioning?!

http://jalopnik.com/5176993/20...evy-camaro-first-drive (http://jalopnik.com/5176993/2010-chevy-camaro-first-drive)

Handles well, but steering is numb
Interior is cheap (duh)
Looks great
Engines are great

TehMac
03-21-2009, 10:23 PM
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like this guy was driving the automatic version, you're never going to get that connection with driving an automatic. However, it's his opinion, so maybe he was driving a manual. He mentioned being in 3rd, but I imagine if you're good with an auto, you can tell what gear you're in.

Secondly, good points about the styling, that is what you're paying for, as well as some pretty nice V6 and V8 engines.

Fmr12B
03-21-2009, 11:25 PM
Car & Driver posted their Camaro SS review today


http://www.caranddriver.com/re...8_short_take_road_test (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/corvette_camaro_corner/2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss_v8_short_take_road_test)

Bignate603
03-21-2009, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by: TehMac
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like this guy was driving the automatic version, you're never going to get that connection with driving an automatic. However, it's his opinion, so maybe he was driving a manual. He mentioned being in 3rd, but I imagine if you're good with an auto, you can tell what gear you're in.

Secondly, good points about the styling, that is what you're paying for, as well as some pretty nice V6 and V8 engines.

I think they drove multiple cars, one with the V6 and auto and then another with the V8.

Honestly I'm not too surprised about the comments on the handling. This was a car that was produced under some severe limits on budget and personnel. I can guarantee that those limits didn't allow them as much refinement as they would have liked. That being said, you might see a better tuned suspension in the next year or two as they have a bit of time. If this sells as well as many think it might this will bring a bit of cash in for GM and they'll be wanting make sure it will continue to be a money maker for them.

TehMac
03-22-2009, 12:05 AM
Well, the Z28 is canceled, so there goes whatever interest I had in the platform. Frankly though, I think you're quite right, a lot of this has to do with budget restraints, I'm surprised they were even able to make the thing come out and perform the way it does. Still though, if I recall, 43k is GT500 territory, which reaches 0-60 in around 4.7-.9 seconds. The Cobra does resemble a phallus though, so I guess a Camaro would be a better bet. :P

Personally, I'd get myself a tuner muscle car, I don't care much for the straight outta the factory shit. Muscle cars are meant to be played with. Imma get one of these gas guzzlers:
http://www.motorauthority.com/...nger-and-cuda-005.html (http://www.motorauthority.com/gallery/mr-norm-super-challenger/mr-norms-super-challenger-and-cuda-005.html)

Oh baby :P

Gillbot
03-22-2009, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by: TehMac
Well, the Z28 is canceled, so there goes whatever interest I had in the platform. Frankly though, I think you're quite right, a lot of this has to do with budget restraints, I'm surprised they were even able to make the thing come out and perform the way it does. Still though, if I recall, 43k is GT500 territory, which reaches 0-60 in around 4.7-.9 seconds. The Cobra does resemble a phallus though, so I guess a Camaro would be a better bet. :P

Personally, I'd get myself a tuner muscle car, I don't care much for the straight outta the factory shit. Muscle cars are meant to be played with. Imma get one of these gas guzzlers:
http://www.motorauthority.com/...nger-and-cuda-005.html (http://www.motorauthority.com/gallery/mr-norm-super-challenger/mr-norms-super-challenger-and-cuda-005.html)

Oh baby :P

+1, I Think GM knows their back is against the wall now because they can't produce what they need to anymore. Many were waiting for the Z28 and now that it's cancelled, they won't splurge for the SS but likely skip the platform entirely.

TehMac
03-22-2009, 09:51 AM
I don't know, it depends. Most people will buy the V6, with 300 hp, that's a splendid deal, you're getting great interior, performance that rivals the Mustang GT (why are these cars so weak, I love them, but they're "muscle-car lite" they didn't use to be), and a decent interior.

Bignate603
03-22-2009, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by: TehMac
I don't know, it depends. Most people will buy the V6, with 300 hp, that's a splendid deal, you're getting great interior, performance that rivals the Mustang GT (why are these cars so weak, I love them, but they're "muscle-car lite" they didn't use to be), and a decent interior.

I agree. Just like the Mustang the majority of sales will be the base drive train. IMHO the base model Camaro is better than the base model Mustang. It has good looks, more power, and better mileage. That should make them sell a decent amount of cars.

TehMac
03-22-2009, 11:19 AM
Well, in a perfect world, it'd make more sense, but a lot of people always rush rush to the best thing they can get their hands on now without any thought of the future. Pretty big reason why we're in the mess we are.

If I recall, the V6 Camaro should go for around 22k, which is around the same price as a V6 Mustang?

thedarkwolf
03-22-2009, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by: TehMac
Well, in a perfect world, it'd make more sense, but a lot of people always rush rush to the best thing they can get their hands on now without any thought of the future. Pretty big reason why we're in the mess we are.

If I recall, the V6 Camaro should go for around 22k, which is around the same price as a V6 Mustang?

$20k. The camaro has usually been the more power full better handling car over the years. The problem was everything else SUCKED so the people that bought the v6 versions, which were most people, and didn't care about handling and power bought mustangs and the camaro died.

Gillbot
03-22-2009, 01:39 PM
the V6 is still overpriced.

PricklyPete
03-22-2009, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by: Gillbot
the V6 is still overpriced.

what? 23K for 300 hp? Where else are you going to get that horsepower for that money?

TehMac
03-22-2009, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by: thedarkwolf
Originally posted by: TehMac
Well, in a perfect world, it'd make more sense, but a lot of people always rush rush to the best thing they can get their hands on now without any thought of the future. Pretty big reason why we're in the mess we are.

If I recall, the V6 Camaro should go for around 22k, which is around the same price as a V6 Mustang?

$20k. The camaro has usually been the more power full better handling car over the years. The problem was everything else SUCKED so the people that bought the v6 versions, which were most people, and didn't care about handling and power bought mustangs and the camaro died.

That does make sense. I am afraid it's going to be the same case this time around. People are looking for something mildly sporty, and Mustang delivers, the Camaro looks great, but sadly, most people who tend to buy muscle car lites are females and high school peeps; I don't think the people who'd really want a Camaro would get one, and everyone else would get a mustang v6.

Shame, but I have a feeling that's how it'd go.

Apex
03-22-2009, 05:19 PM
Wow, that T1 is nuts. :)

Gillbot
03-22-2009, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by: PricklyPete
Originally posted by: Gillbot
the V6 is still overpriced.

what? 23K for 300 hp? Where else are you going to get that horsepower for that money?

who cares about HP per $, GM is notorious for putting great motors in horrible cars.

Marlin1975
03-22-2009, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by: TehMac
Originally posted by: thedarkwolf
Originally posted by: TehMac
Well, in a perfect world, it'd make more sense, but a lot of people always rush rush to the best thing they can get their hands on now without any thought of the future. Pretty big reason why we're in the mess we are.

If I recall, the V6 Camaro should go for around 22k, which is around the same price as a V6 Mustang?

$20k. The camaro has usually been the more power full better handling car over the years. The problem was everything else SUCKED so the people that bought the v6 versions, which were most people, and didn't care about handling and power bought mustangs and the camaro died.

That does make sense. I am afraid it's going to be the same case this time around. People are looking for something mildly sporty, and Mustang delivers, the Camaro looks great, but sadly, most people who tend to buy muscle car lites are females and high school peeps; I don't think the people who'd really want a Camaro would get one, and everyone else would get a mustang v6.

Shame, but I have a feeling that's how it'd go.


Yep he is right about the female part. Power is not a major item for most mustang/F-Body owners. GM lost the F-Body vs Mustang war as they kept advertising all the V8 power and dark looks etc... while Ford advertised how much fun the Mustang is, drop the top, take the girls out for the weekend, etc... and won. The reason? The number 1 owner of Mustangs/Fbodies is female and they bought V6's. I think the major things they wanted was fun, good looks, etc... power was up on some test but even then the ones that said they wanted power said the V6 was plenty and V8 was overkill, even those that did get the V8.

My mom has a Camaro and did not want the V8. The only reason she got the V8 was my dad wanted it and he does not even drive it much. She wishs she had got the V6 for gas milage and price now.

People like to talk about power and V8's and so on but the buyer wants fun, decent gas milage, image, etc... GM putting a 300+ HP V6 in the camaro should help it a bit. They need to make sure it is reliable and also come out with a drop top that does not cost to much if they want to win.

ElFenix
03-22-2009, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by: thedarkwolf

$20k. The camaro has usually been the more power full better handling car over the years. The problem was everything else SUCKED so the people that bought the v6 versions, which were most people, and didn't care about handling and power bought mustangs and the camaro died.

iirc, it was really only the 90s where the camaro had a clear power advantage over the mustang.

and the jalopnik article says the V6 camaro will be $22,995 MSRP. that's 2 grand more than the mustang's base price.

postmortemIA
03-22-2009, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: thedarkwolf

$20k. The camaro has usually been the more power full better handling car over the years. The problem was everything else SUCKED so the people that bought the v6 versions, which were most people, and didn't care about handling and power bought mustangs and the camaro died.

iirc, it was really only the 90s where the camaro had a clear power advantage over the mustang.

and the jalopnik article says the V6 camaro will be $22,995 MSRP. that's 2 grand more than the mustang's base price.

so? at least camaro's V6 has decent output, ~300HP, which you can't say for 4.0L 210HP engine in mustang. they didn't even bother to make it better for new 2010 mustang. What a half-assed effort: that engine probably is worst V6 you can get today: it has highest displacement and lowest output at same time.

I'd pay $2000 for 90 more HP.

LordMorpheus
03-22-2009, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by: postmortemIA
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: thedarkwolf

$20k. The camaro has usually been the more power full better handling car over the years. The problem was everything else SUCKED so the people that bought the v6 versions, which were most people, and didn't care about handling and power bought mustangs and the camaro died.

iirc, it was really only the 90s where the camaro had a clear power advantage over the mustang.

and the jalopnik article says the V6 camaro will be $22,995 MSRP. that's 2 grand more than the mustang's base price.

so? at least camaro's V6 has decent output, ~300HP, which you can't say for 4.0L 210HP engine in mustang. they didn't even bother to make it better for new 2010 mustang. What a half-assed effort: that engine probably is worst V6 you can get today: it has highest displacement and lowest output at same time.

I'd pay $2000 for 90 more HP.

Ford has been screwing around with the new model having the old model's engines for a year or so before an update. I'm surprised they managed to get the 3V modular V8 into the new 2005 year mustang, actually.

In a couple years we will see Ford's new engines in the mustang, things like the ecoboost V6 that's going to make 365 horsepower in the Taurus SHO, and then things will be very nice indeed.

Why they couldn't have launched the new 2010 with the new engines is beyond me, though.

ElFenix
03-22-2009, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by: postmortemIA
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: thedarkwolf

$20k. The camaro has usually been the more power full better handling car over the years. The problem was everything else SUCKED so the people that bought the v6 versions, which were most people, and didn't care about handling and power bought mustangs and the camaro died.

iirc, it was really only the 90s where the camaro had a clear power advantage over the mustang.

and the jalopnik article says the V6 camaro will be $22,995 MSRP. that's 2 grand more than the mustang's base price.

so? at least camaro's V6 has decent output, ~300HP, which you can't say for 4.0L 210HP engine in mustang. they didn't even bother to make it better for new 2010 mustang. What a half-assed effort: that engine probably is worst V6 you can get today: it has highest displacement and lowest output at same time.

I'd pay $2000 for 90 more HP.

the 'so' is correcting the previous poster's incorrect statement, not an argument.

LTC8K6
03-22-2009, 11:49 PM
SYNC is impressive, and you can get a real NAV system in the Ford.

PlasmaBomb
03-23-2009, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by: Apex
Wow, that T1 is nuts. :)


Yup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caparo_T1).

I presume that is $36k for the options?

Apex
03-23-2009, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
Originally posted by: Apex
Wow, that T1 is nuts. :)


Yup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caparo_T1).

I presume that is $36k for the options?

Haha, indeed.

Here's the story in pictures from the beginning:

http://www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=820

big man
03-23-2009, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by: punjabiplaya
http://www.topgear.com/us/blog/more/caparo-gets-hotter/

36K for a canopy and air conditioning?!

http://jalopnik.com/5176993/20...evy-camaro-first-drive (http://jalopnik.com/5176993/2010-chevy-camaro-first-drive)

Handles well, but steering is numb
Interior is cheap (duh)
Looks great
Engines are great


3.5L v8 is the same race engine plucked straight from an indy car!!

i'd never buy a "sports car" that weighs one fat american shy of 2 tons

Fenixgoon
03-23-2009, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by: big man
Originally posted by: punjabiplaya
http://www.topgear.com/us/blog/more/caparo-gets-hotter/

36K for a canopy and air conditioning?!

http://jalopnik.com/5176993/20...evy-camaro-first-drive (http://jalopnik.com/5176993/2010-chevy-camaro-first-drive)

Handles well, but steering is numb
Interior is cheap (duh)
Looks great
Engines are great


3.5L v8 is the same race engine plucked straight from an indy car!!

i'd never buy a "sports car" that weighs one fat american shy of 2 tons

yes, a sports car that seats 4, has an awesome V8, and still handles well :roll:
if you want a *real* sports car, then you're going to pay for it. simple as that.

less armchair engineering, more put your money where your mouth is.

TehMac
03-23-2009, 09:13 PM
Yeah, keep in mind, the Camaros, Challengers, and Mustangs are all pony cars, with varying degrees of handling and so forth. However, I think the Camaro certainly performs when it comes to handling and speed, certainly seems like the best compromise to the average person between the surprising grip and handling(?) of the Challenger, and the nimbleness and "get go" of the GT500.

LTC8K6
03-23-2009, 09:44 PM
They are not sports cars, so the comparison makes no sense.

TehMac
03-23-2009, 10:00 PM
The thing is, people expect them to be like sports cars, that's the thing BMW and other companies have done. They're more of a progressive, sporty, quality, brand, whereas the sporty brands of the Big Three, Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger evoke a legacy and perhaps something more personable than a German sportscar.

I think what would really aid The Big Three is reducing costs, focusing more on the quality and build, around 75% of their labor is done by hand, which is too expensive and, considering their attempts to try to cut costs around this, lead to disastrous results for them in the '90's. In turn, this would help ease their reputation to be from "I need a car that can be shit and Ford makes the cheapest shit" to "I want a reasonably priced car that is well made, Ford/GM/Chyrsler can satisfy that more easily in one package than say, a BMW, etc."

Fayd
03-30-2009, 08:19 PM
the new camaro looks like the bastard love child of the new mustang and the new charger 0.0