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mindcycle
11-05-2008, 03:23 PM
There are lots of great PC games being released this holiday season. So many in fact, it's hard to decide which games to buy. Well, for those of you, like me, who base your buying decision on what type of DRM a game uses, this list is for you. It's not meant to be an all encompassing list, just a list of confirmed DRM for a few of the more popular titles that will be released in the near future, and also some that have already been released.

The point of this topic isn't to start a huge discussion on DRM itself, but more to help inform everyone what "extra" software they will be buying when they purchase a game. Most game publishers don't mention what type of DRM their product is using in the game description, often leaving it up to us to figure that out.

Below you'll find descriptions of various forms of DRM (or copyright protection) and what games are using them. These are for games that have confirmed DRM.

__________________________

SecuROM v7.x (activation based)

# Authentication: Once your game has been installed it needs to authenticate online before you can play the game.
# Re-authentication: The game needs to be re-authenticated when you download online content, game patches, or when significant changes to hardware take place. Upgrading or replacing, hard drives, graphics cards, CPU's, etc.. This also includes hard drive reformatting and bios updating, but not OS updates.
# No CD check: After installation, a physical copy is not needed in order to play the game.
# Install limit: The user is limited to installing the game 5 times. Once all activations have been used you need to call the publisher who will give you new activations on a 'case-by-case basis'. *please note that older (and in some cases newer) games using activation based SecuROM will have less total installs. I've noted this below by denoting games with a (#) under the "other" section. This means they had (or still have) less than 5 installs at the time they were released.
# Revoke system: Some publishers include a de-installation or revoke application so you can revoke an install before you make hardware changes, etc.. thus not using another install up.

Game Title / Publisher / Revoke / Other

Alone in the Dark / Atari / Y / (2) (http://www.aitdunlock.com)
Bioshock / 2k Games / Y / activation limit removed by the publisher link (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=296125)
Command And Conquer: Red Alert 3 / EA / N /
Crysis: Warhead / EA / N /
Dead Space / EA / N /
Far Cry 2 / Ubisoft / Y /
FIFA 09 / EA / Y / Revoke w/ latest patch http://news.bigdownload.com/20...nload-fifa-09-patch-2/ (http://news.bigdownload.com/2008/11/07/download-fifa-09-patch-2/)
GTA 4 / Rockstar Games / / no install limits, but does have online activation + disc check
Kings Bounty: The Legend / Atari / / protection removed w/ russian 1.6.4 patch
Mass Effect / EA / N / (3)
Mercenaries 2 / EA / N /
Mirror's Edge / EA / N /
Need For Speed: Undercover / EA / N /
NHL 09 / EA / N /
Sacred 2 / Atari / Y / (2) DRM info (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?rwsiteid=1&newsbit=10223)
Spore / EA / N / (3)

__________________________

SecuROM v7.x (disc check)

# CD check: The game disk is required to be in the drive when you launch the game.
# CD burning software conflict: You may have to uninstall cd writing programs or image programs like Nero, Roxio, Sonic, Alcohol, Daemon tools, etc.. before you are able to install or run the game.
# SecuROM 7.x, if run under a non-admin user account, installs its own service called UAService7.exe, which works in ring 3 of the computer's operating system. (from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securom))

Game Title / Publisher / Other

Brothers in Arms - Hells Highway / Ubisoft /
Deer Hunter Tournament / Atari /
Devil May Cry 4 / Capcom /
Fallout 3 / Bethesda /
FlatOut Ultimate Carnage / Empire Interactive /
Guitar Hero: Aerosmith / Aspyr /
GTR Evolution / SimBin /
Legendary / Atari /
LEGO Batman / Lucasarts /
MotoGP '08 / Capcom /
Neverwinter Nights 2 Storm Of Zehir / Atari /
Pure / Disney Interactive /
STCC The Game / SimBin /
The Sims 2 Mansion & Garden Stuff / EA /
Tomb Raider Underworld / Edios /
Wall-e / THQ /

__________________________

TAGES

# Disc check: The game disk is required to be in the drive when you launch the game.
# Authentication: Once your game has been installed it needs to authenticate online before you can play the game. (for Steam versions only)
# Install limit: The user is limited to installing the game a certain number of times. Once all activations have been used you need to call the publisher who will give you new activations on a 'case-by-case basis'. (for Steam versions only)

Game Title / Publisher / Revoke / Other

Stalker: Clear Sky / Deep Silver / N / 5 install limit for steam version only, DVD version uses TAGES disc check only
The Witcher Enhanced Edition / Atari / / DVD version uses TAGES disc check only
X3: Terran Conflict / Egosoft / N / 5 install limit for steam version only, DVD version uses TAGES disc check only

__________________________

SafeDisc V4

# CD check: The game disk is required to be in the drive when you launch the game.
# SafeDisc installs its own Windows device driver to the user's computer, named secdrv.sys. In addition to enabling the copy protection, it grants ring 0 access to the running application. This is a potential security risk, since trojans and other malware could use the driver to obtain administrator access to the machine, even if the programs are running under a limited account. (from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SafeDisc))

Game Title / Publisher / Other

Call Of Duty: World At War / Activision /
Dynasty Warriors 6 / AKoei /
James Bond 007: Quantum of Solace / Activision /
Space Siege / SEGA /
Spiderman Web of Shadows / Activision /

__________________________

Steam

# Online validation: It is necessary to validate every Steam game online before it can be launched, although an offline mode is available.
# Forced auto-updates: By default, to play a game offline, Steam and the game itself must be fully updated. When Steam starts online, the system checks to see if there are updates available. If there are, the user is forced to wait for update process to finish before being able to play again, though games can be streamed online.
# Resale Limitation: Games bought through Steam cannot legally be resold due to the unsuitability of current proof of purchase laws.
# Regional Pricing: Although Steam is an entirely virtual entity, Valve allows developers and publishers to geographically restrict where a game is available, and at what price. This means some games will not be able to be activated and played until a certain date based on the country you live in.
(info taken from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(content_delivery)))


Game Title / Publisher / Other

Empire: Total War / SEGA /
Left 4 Dead / Valve /
Silent Hill: Homecoming / Konami /

__________________________

Uniloc

#Online activation and install limits
#More info soon


Game Title / Publisher / Revoke / Other

Football Manager 2009 / SEGA / Y / http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=60817

__________________________

Impluse

# Download service by Stardock
# Games downloaded from this service require you to authenticate online before you can install/re-install.
# Other DRM protection may be included, they leave it up to the publisher. Check the game description.

Game Title / Publisher / Other

Demigod / Stardock /
Sins of a Solar Empire / Stardock /
The Witcher Enhanced Edition / Atari /

__________________________

No DRM

# These games contain no DRM
# Confirmed for retail disc based versions only (download versions may contain DRM)

Game Title / Publisher / Other

Baja 1000 / Activision / *not fully confirmed yet
Bully Scholarship Edition / Take 2 Interactive
Demigod / Stardock /
Kudos 2 / Positech /
Penumbra Requiem / Paradox Interactive / *not fully confirmed yet
Prince of Persia / Ubisoft /
Sins of a Solar Empire / Stardock /

Good Old Games offers older DRM free games for direct download. http://www.gog.com/

__________________________

*Note, this list will be updated as new info becomes available and is not guaranteed to be 100% accurate. Most publishers wait until the last minute to announce what DRM their game uses, or they don't announce anything at all. So don't be surprised if you don't see a game you've been waiting for on the list. Chances are you won't find out about the DRM until after the game is released. A good rule of thumb to follow is that if it's a new EA game it will have activation based SecuROM. It appears Ubisoft may be following that trend now as well.

The list reflects DRM for N/A releases only. Sometimes the DRM will differ for releases in other countries.

If you find a game with confirmed DRM not listed here, let me know. I will also update the descriptions as I do more research.

__________________________

More Info

For those of you who want more info about these protection systems.

SecuROM on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securom)
SafeDisc on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SafeDisc)
TAGES on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAGES)
Steam on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(content_delivery)#Criticism_of_Steam)
SecuROM info on ReclaimYourGame (http://SecuROM)
List of SecuROM protected games on ReclaimYourGame (http://www.reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=11)
Great In-depth article on SecuROM (http://talkjack.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/is-drm-killing-pc-games-part-3/)
A user account of Spore / SecuROM activation hassles (http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/list/6800.page)
Steam No DRM Group (http://steamcommunity.com/groups/nodrm/)
DefectiveByDesign.org (http://www.defectivebydesign.org/)

__________________________

Moved from Hot Deals
moderator allisolm
oops.. lol

Temp sticky for a month by popular request
-Schadenfroh (AT Mod)

Desslok
11-05-2008, 03:27 PM
Hot Deal??

onza
11-05-2008, 03:28 PM
I think wrong section.

exar333
11-05-2008, 03:54 PM
What about having a section for confirmed NO DRM? Then people can see games that have verified no DRM like "The Witcher."

OP - Great thread idea!

mindcycle
11-05-2008, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by: ExarKun333
What about having a section for confirmed NO DRM? Then people can see games that have verified no DRM like "The Witcher."

OP - Great thread idea!

I like that. I'll add that section. Thanks man.

coloumb
11-05-2008, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by: Desslok
Hot Deal??

Definitely!! ;)

Lonyo
11-05-2008, 04:18 PM
No listing for Steam?

mindcycle
11-05-2008, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by: Lonyo
No listing for Steam?

Most DRM on hard copies is on the Steam versions as well.

I will add a Steam section for games that are only using Steam for DRM. Like Left 4 Dead.

ArchAngel777
11-05-2008, 05:39 PM
Mind looking up any info in King's Bounty: The Legend?

I purchased the game last night on D2D against my better judgement... I need one install for my main PC, and one for my Laptop... So two authentications were used up. The last time I bought an Atari game with DRM, I was only allowed two installations. That was bull shit. Test Drive Unlimited was the game and I installed it on my main PC, then on my second PC. I went to do a rebuild and had to dial some number, read off a million digits (ones that make MS Vista process easy!) and then got my addition unlock. That was kinda bull shit though, because the phone number isn't a 1-800 number... Luckily, it looks like Digital River is located here in Minnesota, where I live so the number was local for me. Pirating games is getting damn tempting with how bad some of this shit is getting...

mindcycle
11-05-2008, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Mind looking up any info in King's Bounty: The Legend?

I purchased the game last night on D2D against my better judgement... I need one install for my main PC, and one for my Laptop... So two authentications were used up. The last time I bought an Atari game with DRM, I was only allowed two installations. That was bull shit. Test Drive Unlimited was the game and I installed it on my main PC, then on my second PC. I went to do a rebuild and had to dial some number, read off a million digits (ones that make MS Vista process easy!) and then got my addition unlock. That was kinda bull shit though, because the phone number isn't a 1-800 number... Luckily, it looks like Digital River is located here in Minnesota, where I live so the number was local for me. Pirating games is getting damn tempting with how bad some of this shit is getting...

Apparently DRM has been removed with the Russian 1.6.4 patch, which should work with the english versions. Not sure about the D2D version, but i'm assuming it would work the same.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=4518

Scroll down a bit for info on the different patches.

Renob
11-05-2008, 06:23 PM
wow when are people just going to stop crying about this, I have had at least 5 game with this on both an XP and Vista 64 systema and never had a problem.

I have many gamer friends and they have never had problems.

mindcycle
11-05-2008, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by: Renob
wow when are people just going to stop crying about this, I have had at least 5 game with this on both an XP and Vista 64 systema and never had a problem.

I have many gamer friends and they have never had problems.

I don't see anyone crying here.. Some people may be interested in what protection they are "buying" along with their game. That's the whole point of this thread. If you don't care then that's fine. This thread is for people who do.

YEPP
11-05-2008, 06:55 PM
Alone in the Dark does offer the ability to revoke, it is limited to being active on two PCs at the same time.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.aitdunlock.com/">https://www.aitdunlock.com/ (https://www.aitdunlock.com/)</a>

Two Worlds is another game with limited activation, 3 activations. Don't know what system it uses, think the DRM is built into the game.

http://www.2-worlds.com/

mindcycle
11-05-2008, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by: YEPP
Alone in the Dark does offer the ability to revoke, it is limited to being active on two PCs at the same time.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.aitdunlock.com/"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.aitdunlock.com/"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.aitdunlock.com/">https://www.aitdunlock.com/ (https://www.aitdunlock.com/)</a></a></a>

Two Worlds is another game with limited activation, 3 activations. Don't know what system it uses, think the DRM is built into the game.

http://www.2-worlds.com/

Thanks for the info. I've updated the list.

Edit: I couldn't find any info on the DRM used for Two Worlds. If anyone finds something let me know.

Renob
11-05-2008, 08:08 PM
If you don't care then that's fine. This thread is for people


Fair enough! "crying" might have been a little harsh, I just feel that at times people worry just a little to much about this isseu, maybe I have just been lucky to not have had a problem.

Pia
11-06-2008, 12:33 PM
Renob, if I was just concerned about practical problems, why would I not warez everything?

It's a question of principle. When a developer attempts to make a quality game, they absolutely deserve compensation.
On the other hand, if they deliberately make the product worse than the copy pirates will be circulating, that's a) ridiculous, b) not an activity I am going to encourage and reward.

Martimus
11-06-2008, 05:28 PM
Very nice Mindcycle! I hope this gets stickied, since this could be very useful to people over the next few months when we go out and buy Christmas gifts.

OCGuy
11-06-2008, 05:37 PM
Its the wave of the future, get used to it. Pony up the $50 for a game, or go play your Xbox with 3 year old tech.

mindcycle
11-06-2008, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Its the wave of the future, get used to it. Pony up the $50 for a game, or go play your Xbox with 3 year old tech.

It's only the wave of the future if we continue to buy and support games with invasive DRM. I'm mainly against online activation and limited installs. I bought Fallout 3, and although I don't like that it uses SecuROM for disc checking, I can live with it. Others are opposed to even that.

If the customer knows what they are buying, then they can make an informed decision about it. Right now that isn't happening. Publishers try and hide what DRM they are using since they think it will hurt sales or cause a controversy. That's not the right way to treat your customers IMO. That's why I created this thread.

coloumb
11-06-2008, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by: mindcycle
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Its the wave of the future, get used to it. Pony up the $50 for a game, or go play your Xbox with 3 year old tech.

It's only the wave of the future if we continue to buy and support games with invasive DRM. I'm mainly against online activation and limited installs. I bought Fallout 3, and although I don't like that it uses SecuROM for disc checking, I can live with it. Others are opposed to even that.

If the customer knows what they are buying, then they can make an informed decision about it. Right now that isn't happening. Publishers try and hide what DRM they are using since they think it will hurt sales or cause a controversy. That's not the right way to treat your customers IMO. That's why I created this thread.

Actually - the EULA's do cover what is installed - most people blindly click on "accept" without reading the EULA. Here's an example from Dead Space:

"
B. Technical Protection Measures. Our Software uses access control and copy protection technology. An internet connection is required to authenticate the Software and verify your license. EA reserves the right to validate your license through subsequent online authentication. If your license is not valid you may not be able to use the Software. The first end user of this License can install and authenticate the Software on a set number of machines which may vary by product. The installation of EA Download Manager, the registration of the Software, and the acceptance of additional terms may be required to access online services and download and apply Software updates and patches. Only licensed software can be used to access online services and download and apply updates and patches. If the Software permits access to additional online features, only one copy of the Software may access those features at one time. If you disable or otherwise tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software will not function properly."

Martimus
11-06-2008, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by: coloumb
Originally posted by: mindcycle
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Its the wave of the future, get used to it. Pony up the $50 for a game, or go play your Xbox with 3 year old tech.

It's only the wave of the future if we continue to buy and support games with invasive DRM. I'm mainly against online activation and limited installs. I bought Fallout 3, and although I don't like that it uses SecuROM for disc checking, I can live with it. Others are opposed to even that.

If the customer knows what they are buying, then they can make an informed decision about it. Right now that isn't happening. Publishers try and hide what DRM they are using since they think it will hurt sales or cause a controversy. That's not the right way to treat your customers IMO. That's why I created this thread.

Actually - the EULA's do cover what is installed - most people blindly click on "accept" without reading the EULA. Here's an example from Dead Space:

"
B. Technical Protection Measures. Our Software uses access control and copy protection technology. An internet connection is required to authenticate the Software and verify your license. EA reserves the right to validate your license through subsequent online authentication. If your license is not valid you may not be able to use the Software. The first end user of this License can install and authenticate the Software on a set number of machines which may vary by product. The installation of EA Download Manager, the registration of the Software, and the acceptance of additional terms may be required to access online services and download and apply Software updates and patches. Only licensed software can be used to access online services and download and apply updates and patches. If the Software permits access to additional online features, only one copy of the Software may access those features at one time. If you disable or otherwise tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software will not function properly."

Right, because your $50 purchase is worth spending an hour of your life reading the monotonous EULA. It isn't reasonable for a consumer to read through long license agreements for small purchases, and the courts have backed this with their rulings. Even so, it isn't printed anywhere on the box, and once you have opened the software to install the game, it is too late to return it (also wasting your time for such a small purchase, it would be easier not to buy PC games at all than have to worry about this crap.)

This thread makes those decisions easy, so you don't have to put much effort into deciding what is acceptable to put on your machine or not.

soybeast
11-06-2008, 10:28 PM
I think this thread and/or list should be made a sticky and continually updated.....unless there's a website out there does the same thing?

Maximilian
11-06-2008, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by: coloumb
Originally posted by: mindcycle
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Its the wave of the future, get used to it. Pony up the $50 for a game, or go play your Xbox with 3 year old tech.

It's only the wave of the future if we continue to buy and support games with invasive DRM. I'm mainly against online activation and limited installs. I bought Fallout 3, and although I don't like that it uses SecuROM for disc checking, I can live with it. Others are opposed to even that.

If the customer knows what they are buying, then they can make an informed decision about it. Right now that isn't happening. Publishers try and hide what DRM they are using since they think it will hurt sales or cause a controversy. That's not the right way to treat your customers IMO. That's why I created this thread.

Actually - the EULA's do cover what is installed - most people blindly click on "accept" without reading the EULA.

Yeah for good reason, they are extremely long and incredibly boring. Im glad theres people out there that do read the thing because i sure as hell dont want to.

mindcycle
11-07-2008, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by: coloumb

Actually - the EULA's do cover what is installed - most people blindly click on "accept" without reading the EULA. Here's an example from Dead Space:


That's true. The only problem is by the time you read those you've already bought and opened the game. Most stores won't accept returns on opened games.

A better option would be including DRM info on the box and online in the game description, or at least a link to find out more info. It can be in the fine print, but the fact that it's almost never present bothers me. We should have the right to know what we're going to be installing on our computer.

YEPP
11-07-2008, 01:00 PM
Steam version of Stalker: Clear Sky is crippled by a 5 time activation limit and comes bundled with Tages as well.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/20510/

http://techgage.com/news/stalk...time_activation_limit/ (http://techgage.com/news/stalker_clear_sky_features_5-time_activation_limit/)

mindcycle
11-07-2008, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by: YEPP
Steam version of Stalker: Clear Sky is crippled by a 5 time activation limit and comes bundled with Tages as well.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/20510/

http://techgage.com/news/stalk...time_activation_limit/ (http://techgage.com/news/stalker_clear_sky_features_5-time_activation_limit/)

Thanks for the heads up. I've updated the listing.

YEPP
11-07-2008, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by: mindcycle
Originally posted by: YEPP
Steam version of Stalker: Clear Sky is crippled by a 5 time activation limit and comes bundled with Tages as well.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/20510/

http://techgage.com/news/stalk...time_activation_limit/ (http://techgage.com/news/stalker_clear_sky_features_5-time_activation_limit/)

Thanks for the heads up. I've updated the listing.

Think you misunderstood, the limited activations only apply to the Steam version, which is just odd.

The retail version does not have an acitivation limit, as far as i know.

Think the same might applies to X3: Terran Conflict. Just the Steam/digital versions of Tages comes with the crippling activation limit. While the hard/DVD copies are not effected.

http://forums.steampowered.com...&p=8278259&postcount=9 (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?s=896ee2c6bd7fb39b66fa2178bd7e5811&p=8278259&postcount=9)

mindcycle
11-07-2008, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by: YEPP

Think you misunderstood, the limited activations only apply to the Steam version, which is just odd.

The retail version does not have an acitivation limit, as far as i know.

It's on the retail version as well. I actually bought the game before I found out about the DRM. That really pissed me off.

The Russian version has Starforce. :disgust: Thing is, even with Starforce, would that be a better version over the TAGES version with limited installs.. It's sad to even have to ponder that question.

YEPP
11-07-2008, 01:46 PM
I see, thanks for clearing that up for me.

mindcycle
11-07-2008, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by: YEPP
Think the same might applies to X3: Terran Conflict. Just the Steam/digital versions of Tages comes with the crippling activation limit. While the hard/DVD copies are not effected.

http://forums.steampowered.com...&p=8278259&postcount=9 (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?s=896ee2c6bd7fb39b66fa2178bd7e5811&p=8278259&postcount=9)

That's confirmed then. I just read through the thread. Thanks for the link. I guess it's good that the DVD version doesn't have the install limit. Still, what a mess.

mindcycle
11-07-2008, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by: YEPP

Think you misunderstood, the limited activations only apply to the Steam version, which is just odd.

The retail version does not have an acitivation limit, as far as i know.

Ok, I did some more research and it looks like the install limit version of TAGES is only on the steam version of Stalker CS as well. I thought it was also on the retail version since everywhere you look it talks about install limits, but a guy on the forum below installed and played the game without an internet connection. I've updated the list.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/act...4886&pid=942067&page=1 (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/stalkerclearsky/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-45564886&pid=942067&page=1)

mindcycle
11-09-2008, 01:01 AM
Added -
Call Of Duty: World At War
and
Silent Hill: Homecoming

Pia
11-09-2008, 10:04 AM
I want to clarify this: is the copy of The Witcher that you download from Impulse a real, standalone install package that you can backup and use for installation(s) without touching the network again?

Pia
11-09-2008, 05:16 PM
Found the answer to my own question. Apparently, The Witcher EE can't be installed without going online with the Impulse client, even if you had a backup of a previous download. Therefore, it effectively has network activation despite no DRM code running after install is done. The game should be taken off the list or moved to its own section.

Meh. I would have bought immediately if it really turned out to be DRM free, but activation is the one thing I refuse to deal with.

AdamK47
11-09-2008, 06:27 PM
Ahhhhh DRM! Ahhhhhhhhhh!

*Runs away screaming with arms in the air.

mindcycle
11-09-2008, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by: Pia
Found the answer to my own question. Apparently, The Witcher EE can't be installed without going online with the Impulse client, even if you had a backup of a previous download. Therefore, it effectively has network activation despite no DRM code running after install is done. The game should be taken off the list or moved to its own section.

Meh. I would have bought immediately if it really turned out to be DRM free, but activation is the one thing I refuse to deal with.

I looked through the Impluse faq and it looks like your right. Apparently they leave DRM up to the publisher, but until I can verify exactly what type of DRM The Witcher EE is using, i'm going to create an Impluse DL section and throw it under there.

Thanks for the heads up.

Regs
11-09-2008, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by: AdamK47
Ahhhhh DRM! Ahhhhhhhhhh!

*Runs away screaming with arms in the air.



lol


OMFG You're on fire! *tackles* roll roll!

coloumb
11-09-2008, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by: mindcycle
Originally posted by: coloumb

Actually - the EULA's do cover what is installed - most people blindly click on "accept" without reading the EULA. Here's an example from Dead Space:


That's true. The only problem is by the time you read those you've already bought and opened the game. Most stores won't accept returns on opened games.

A better option would be including DRM info on the box and online in the game description, or at least a link to find out more info. It can be in the fine print, but the fact that it's almost never present bothers me. We should have the right to know what we're going to be installing on our computer.

/agree - I just looked at a few box covers [there's actually a website that has this] - and only 1 game [Assassin's Creed] details that it "contains technology intended to prevent copying that may conflict with some disc and virtual drives".

It would be interesting to see if you could return a game based on your argument [most stores apply a sticker stating if the game was opened, you can't return it].

Perhaps we should get the industry reps [those folks who continue to fight the good fight for the gaming industry] to petition software companies / developers / publishers to require this info be printed on the cover?

Pia
11-10-2008, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by: mindcycle
I looked through the Impluse faq and it looks like your right. Apparently they leave DRM up to the publisher, but until I can verify exactly what type of DRM The Witcher EE is using, i'm going to create an Impluse DL section and throw it under there.Impulse is almost exactly the same as Steam. In lieu of a better name, the DRM type is "Impulse".

Stardock support says there will be a notification for any additional DRM on the store page:
http://forums.impulsedriven.com/328900
Chances are that The Witcher EE has no other DRM.

I'd only wish developers and distributors did not make it so effing hard to find out the real limitations attached to their products. Now we are left to dig and dig for it, and then infer the truth from what they don't say. And then there is the occasional lie. (Yep, I'm looking at you, "we removed activation from Bioshock!" 2K Games.)

It only takes one line of text to identify and/or describe any DRM scheme currently on the market. That line of text should sit right on the official Tech Specs page (several lines if there are different versions of the game). The one-page "What is...?" FAQ/summary of a download service should contain "the XYZ client needs network connection each time you install the game", if that is the case.

And if your game does not have DRM? If it does not have network activation? Please, *please* say that in writing. Even small niche titles get infested these days. If you say nothing, I'm going hunt for the information from a 3rd party, that may or may not be reliable. Maybe I won't find that information at all. Either way, there is a real chance I will just forget it.

Martimus
11-10-2008, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by: mindcycle
Originally posted by: Pia
Found the answer to my own question. Apparently, The Witcher EE can't be installed without going online with the Impulse client, even if you had a backup of a previous download. Therefore, it effectively has network activation despite no DRM code running after install is done. The game should be taken off the list or moved to its own section.

Meh. I would have bought immediately if it really turned out to be DRM free, but activation is the one thing I refuse to deal with.

I looked through the Impluse faq and it looks like your right. Apparently they leave DRM up to the publisher, but until I can verify exactly what type of DRM The Witcher EE is using, i'm going to create an Impluse DL section and throw it under there.

Thanks for the heads up.

Just post the question on the Stardock forum. They usually get you a full answer by the end of the working day, and if they can't they usually point you in the right direction of who can help you.

mindcycle
11-10-2008, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by: coloumb

/agree - I just looked at a few box covers [there's actually a website that has this] - and only 1 game [Assassin's Creed] details that it "contains technology intended to prevent copying that may conflict with some disc and virtual drives".

It would be interesting to see if you could return a game based on your argument [most stores apply a sticker stating if the game was opened, you can't return it].

Perhaps we should get the industry reps [those folks who continue to fight the good fight for the gaming industry] to petition software companies / developers / publishers to require this info be printed on the cover?

That's a good idea man. It really is something that should be adopted industry wide IMO.

I wonder about returning the game as well.. Telling them you didn't install it because you didn't agree to the EULA.

mindcycle
11-10-2008, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by: Pia

Stardock support says there will be a notification for any additional DRM on the store page:
http://forums.impulsedriven.com/328900
Chances are that The Witcher EE has no other DRM.

I'd only wish developers and distributors did not make it so effing hard to find out the real limitations attached to their products. Now we are left to dig and dig for it, and then infer the truth from what they don't say. And then there is the occasional lie. (Yep, I'm looking at you, "we removed activation from Bioshock!" 2K Games.)

It only takes one line of text to identify and/or describe any DRM scheme currently on the market. That line of text should sit right on the official Tech Specs page (several lines if there are different versions of the game). The one-page "What is...?" FAQ/summary of a download service should contain "the XYZ client needs network connection each time you install the game", if that is the case.

And if your game does not have DRM? If it does not have network activation? Please, *please* say that in writing. Even small niche titles get infested these days. If you say nothing, I'm going hunt for the information from a 3rd party, that may or may not be reliable. Maybe I won't find that information at all. Either way, there is a real chance I will just forget it.

I just read a post on the Stardock forums where a mod said that The Witcher EE contains no DRM. http://forums.stardock.com/328485

But if they require you to authenticate before you can install the game, then that would be DRM. I might post a topic over there to find out what the deal really is.

derdrache
11-10-2008, 03:18 PM
Fyi, if you launch Fallout 3 from its exe in the bethesda/fallout3 directory it skips the cd check. the cd check is only for the splash screen, which isnt needed since all clicking play does is launch fallout3.exe and not fallout3splash.exe or whatever it is.

Im just glad i dont have to keep spinning up the dvd in my drive when i play, since i launch it a lot.

Pia
11-10-2008, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by: mindcycle
I just read a post on the Stardock forums where a mod said that The Witcher EE contains no DRM. http://forums.stardock.com/328485

But if they require you to authenticate before you can install the game, then that would be DRM. I might post a topic over there to find out what the deal really is.It's pretty obvious they have a weird doublespeak going where Impulse is simply defined as "not DRM" while any other DRM is recognized as such. The one thing they can legitimately argue is that with Impulse, the *installed game* does not contain DRM. The game just happens to always require Impulse to install, which does have DRM and will ask permission for install.

Impulse FAQ skirts the issue, but they could not help sideswiping it in these, tucked-away explanations of UI bits: http://www.impulsedriven.com/h...hiving_&_Other_Options (http://www.impulsedriven.com/help/my_tabs.htm#6_6Archiving_&_Other_Options)

"Re-Activate
Re-activates a program, which is the same as the Activation of a program when you run it for the first time."

The obvious hypothesis is that this re-activation will have to be carried out when...

"Archive Application (If installed)
Allows you to make a backup of the software. This useful if you want to backup the program before an update, in case you think the update may cause problems. Also, if the program is a part of a subscription this allows you to back it up prior to expiration. Once expired, if something happens to your computer you can not download it again without renewing your subscription. Creating an archive packages the software into one file ending in ".impulse" (no quotes) which only Impulse can read."

... you have installed from one of these .impulse backup packages, only readable by Impulse.

But better to get the info directly from the horse's mouth and maybe get a little visiblity to the issue. If you end up asking it on their forums, would you mind leaving feedback (after Q/A:s are over and done with) that these things deserve clarifying in the FAQ?

Emultra
11-10-2008, 07:28 PM
Is the DRM on Tombraider: Underworld present in the demo as well?

mindcycle
11-10-2008, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by: derdrache
Fyi, if you launch Fallout 3 from its exe in the bethesda/fallout3 directory it skips the cd check. the cd check is only for the splash screen, which isnt needed since all clicking play does is launch fallout3.exe and not fallout3splash.exe or whatever it is.

Im just glad i dont have to keep spinning up the dvd in my drive when i play, since i launch it a lot.

That's good to know. I just got the game last week but haven't installed it yet. Still working on Stalker Clear Sky.

Thanks for the info.

mindcycle
11-10-2008, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by: Pia

But better to get the info directly from the horse's mouth and maybe get a little visiblity to the issue. If you end up asking it on their forums, would you mind leaving feedback (after Q/A:s are over and done with) that these things deserve clarifying in the FAQ?

I posted a message over there, but all signs point to no so far. I'll let you know when I get a response. It looks like they may be working on an offline activation program, but it hasn't been implemented yet.

http://forums.stardock.com/329649

mindcycle
11-10-2008, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by: Emultra
Is the DRM on Tombraider: Underworld present in the demo as well?

It uses SecuROM disc check, so since you don't have a disc with the demo I doubt it's on there.

CP5670
11-11-2008, 05:32 PM
Actually, a lot of demos have the same DRM as the retail game, supposedly to deter crackers. It may still install the Securom driver even though there is no CD check.

mindcycle
11-12-2008, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by: Pia
But better to get the info directly from the horse's mouth and maybe get a little visiblity to the issue. If you end up asking it on their forums, would you mind leaving feedback (after Q/A:s are over and done with) that these things deserve clarifying in the FAQ?

I got a response about needing to activate The Witcher EE online before you can play it. So it really does contain DRM..

http://forums.stardock.com/329703

mindcycle
11-12-2008, 02:14 PM
Updated the Impluse section

ArchAngel777
11-14-2008, 08:25 AM
Seems to me the reason you can't return software to the vender is bullshit by the publishers standards.

They claim 'because it can be copied'

However, it can't be copied by the average joe, who is the one who will be purchasing the game in the first place. The pirate will always find a way to crack it, but the average joe cannot really get around the copy protection, thus making it unable to be copied. Therefore, the product should be returnable. Otherwise, get rid of this DRM bullshit. If it does nothing the help the consumer, then get rid of it. Seems to me the public has been all to gullable with this stuff. We already have the facts

1) What copy protection has not been cracked on a game? None.

2) If the game is going to be cracked by the pirates who distribute it on a large scale, what did this invasive DRM stop? Nothing, not even average joe, because he would have purchased the game. He would be far better off downloading a torrent of the already cracked game than trying to crack it on his own. Same with his friends.

DRM plain and simple is bullshit and only causes grief for the end user. The more end-users become burned by DRM, the more people will pirate...

YEPP
11-16-2008, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by: mindcycle

I got a response about needing to activate The Witcher EE online before you can play it. So it really does contain DRM..

http://forums.stardock.com/329703

When I decided to upgrade my copy of The Witcher(normal, disk version) to Enhanced Edition, it required me to have registered my copy of the The Witcher before hand. It then authenticates with the server to see if you have a legit version of the game during the start of the patching process.

Crysis: Warhead is limited to 5 activations, Steam version is also crippled with this.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/17330/

Red Alert 3 is also limited to 5 activations.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3169818

Fifa 09 has a 5 activation limit, with the latest patch you can now revoke.
http://news.bigdownload.com/20...nload-fifa-09-patch-2/ (http://news.bigdownload.com/2008/11/07/download-fifa-09-patch-2/)

Far Cry 2 can be activated 5 times on 3 separate PCs. So thats 3 simultaneous activations with 2 extra lives if you fail to revoke the first time around.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170681

Sacred 2 has a 2 time activation limit.
http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/n...siteid=1&newsbit=10223 (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?rwsiteid=1&newsbit=10223)

Alone in the Dark also is limited to 2 activations.

There is no longer any need to revoke for Bioshock since all activation limits have been removed. Game still requires online activation for installation.
http://forums.2kgames.com/foru...howthread.php?p=296125 (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=296125)

Football Manager 2009 uses Uniloc DRM, 5 activation limit, revoke is possible.
http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=60817
Steam version of Football Manager 2009 also has Uniloc and the 5 activation limit too.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/10540/

mindcycle
11-17-2008, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the info YEPP. I've updated the list.

I also added Legendary.

mindcycle
11-17-2008, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by: YEPP
Fifa 09 has a 5 activation limit, with the latest patch you can now revoke.
http://news.bigdownload.com/20...nload-fifa-09-patch-2/ (http://news.bigdownload.com/2008/11/07/download-fifa-09-patch-2/)


I do find this somewhat disturbing. Fifa 09 is an EA game, so it's entirely possible to add a revoke system to EA games, as shown here. So why does this not exist in other EA games yet? Like Spore.. You'd think with all the shit they've dealt with they'd have released a patch for Spore at least. Not to mention the countless other EA games that don't have a revoke system yet.

mindcycle
11-19-2008, 06:25 PM
Added

Need For Speed: Undercover

mindcycle
11-20-2008, 06:03 PM
Added

Neverwinter Nights 2 Storm Of Zehir
The Sims 2 Mansion & Garden Stuff

tk149
11-21-2008, 10:45 AM
mindcycle, thank you very much for creating this thread!

I've had problems with Securom, and swore I would never buy another game with it. I'll miss out on some good gaming, but better that than supporting an invasive POS.

I guess I'll just cut down on my PC gaming and use my Wii and PS3 more. And publishers wonder why PC game sales are down. :|

On the other hand, I might give Sins of a Solar Empire a try. That's a game I might not otherwise have considered buying except for this DRM crap.

myocardia
11-21-2008, 03:59 PM
Just a headsup here. The games on GoG have some type of DRM, although I'm not sure what type it happens to be. About a week ago, my proprietary (FIOS) router failed, and I couldn't play any of the three games I've bought from them until the new one was installed.

All three of them would blackscreen when you tried to start them, and I wasn't able to Alt-Tab or even Ctrl-Alt-Del, to get back to the desktop. I tried all three games multiple times, and every time a hard reset was the only option. I was pretty surprised, to say the least, since they tout all of their games as being "DRM-free", and they obviously aren't.

dmcowen674
11-21-2008, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by: mindcycle
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Its the wave of the future, get used to it. Pony up the $50 for a game, or go play your Xbox with 3 year old tech.

It's only the wave of the future if we continue to buy and support games with invasive DRM. I'm mainly against online activation and limited installs. I bought Fallout 3, and although I don't like that it uses SecuROM for disc checking, I can live with it. Others are opposed to even that.

If the customer knows what they are buying, then they can make an informed decision about it. Right now that isn't happening. Publishers try and hide what DRM they are using since they think it will hurt sales or cause a controversy. That's not the right way to treat your customers IMO. That's why I created this thread.

Forget it.

This OCguy is one of the most anti-freedom people on the net going.

tk149
11-21-2008, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: mindcycle
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Its the wave of the future, get used to it. Pony up the $50 for a game, or go play your Xbox with 3 year old tech.

It's only the wave of the future if we continue to buy and support games with invasive DRM. I'm mainly against online activation and limited installs. I bought Fallout 3, and although I don't like that it uses SecuROM for disc checking, I can live with it. Others are opposed to even that.

If the customer knows what they are buying, then they can make an informed decision about it. Right now that isn't happening. Publishers try and hide what DRM they are using since they think it will hurt sales or cause a controversy. That's not the right way to treat your customers IMO. That's why I created this thread.

Forget it.

This OCguy is one of the most anti-freedom people on the net going.



Maybe he works for Securom? He obviously hasn't been paying attention. The people who read this thread are willing to pay $50 per game. They just don't want the "extra" software baggage that comes with it. Pirates won't even look at this thread, except to laugh at the honest people and software publishers.

mindcycle
11-25-2008, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by: myocardia
Just a headsup here. The games on GoG have some type of DRM, although I'm not sure what type it happens to be. About a week ago, my proprietary (FIOS) router failed, and I couldn't play any of the three games I've bought from them until the new one was installed.

All three of them would blackscreen when you tried to start them, and I wasn't able to Alt-Tab or even Ctrl-Alt-Del, to get back to the desktop. I tried all three games multiple times, and every time a hard reset was the only option. I was pretty surprised, to say the least, since they tout all of their games as being "DRM-free", and they obviously aren't.

Interesting. I wonder if they require online authentication or something like that, in which case their games actually contain DRM..

I'm a bit tired of these download services claiming their games don't use DRM when they use one of the most invasive forms, online authentication. For example, Impulse..

I'm going to try and find out the answer to this, but if you do so before me let me know.

mindcycle
11-25-2008, 03:45 PM
As far as I can tell GOG games are completely DRM free since you can archive them and install them whenever you'd like. They even tell you in their FAQ that you can install them on as many machines as you want, but urge not to install it on your friends machine. It's more of a, "just don't do that" kind of statement, rather than you can't do that even if you tried. So it leads me to believe that the executable files you download actually are completely DRM free.

http://www.gog.com/en/support/...lp/downloads_and_games (http://www.gog.com/en/support/website_help/downloads_and_games)

If someones finds out otherwise please let me know.

postmortemIA
11-28-2008, 06:06 PM
You can add one more title:
PC Grand Theft Auto IV Features SecuROM DRM (http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/28/2228223&from=rss)

zerocool84
12-02-2008, 04:11 PM
What I'm pissed about is games that are on Steam still have other types of DRM. So I guess we need DRM upon DRM.

wanderer27
12-09-2008, 03:49 PM
I wonder if their DRM has finally come back to bite them:

http://www.marketwatch.com/new...rts&symb=ERTS&sid=6170 (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/electronic-arts-warns-disappointing-game/story.aspx?guid=%7B63E09C32%2DFB36%2D4ED7%2D94D8%2 D5615E805275C%7D&tool=1&dist=bigcharts&symb=ERTS&sid=6170)

mindcycle
12-09-2008, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by: wanderer27
I wonder if their DRM has finally come back to bite them:

http://www.marketwatch.com/new...rts&symb=ERTS&sid=6170 (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/electronic-arts-warns-disappointing-game/story.aspx?guid=%7B63E09C32%2DFB36%2D4ED7%2D94D8%2 D5615E805275C%7D&tool=1&dist=bigcharts&symb=ERTS&sid=6170)



It would be interesting if DRM was part of the reason their sales were not as expected. I bet it also has to do with the fact there is a recession going on in the US and people can't justify spending $60 on another Madden game..

In other news, it appears boxed versions of the new Prince of Persia will contain no DRM.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...08132/m/6971093507/p/3 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/861108132/m/6971093507/p/3)

I've been keeping my eye on that, and hopefully it's actually true.

mindcycle
12-10-2008, 08:38 PM
Added
Prince of Persia

No DRM

Soccer55
12-20-2008, 09:10 AM
Not sure if you want to add this to the list, but I found this post (http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1015331&cid=25596161) on /. that claims that you can install and run Fallout 3 from the retail package WITHOUT SecuRom. I don't have the game yet (my current CPU/video card can't handle it and I won't get my parts until next week :( ), so I can't verify this for myself. Can someone else that has FO3 verify if this is, in fact, true?

-Tom

pmv
01-21-2009, 10:30 PM
Useful list/thread. I'm not likely to be buying any of those games any time soon (I might eventually crack with respect to fallout3, a disk check I can live with). One thing I'd like to see info on is - do the uninstalls of these games uninstall securerom fully (or at all)? Ditto with the other DRMs (Steam would be a different issue obviously).

And if not, are there instructions how to clean this junk off my machine if and when required? If I decided to tolerate its presence for the sake of Fallout3, say, I'd like to be able to get rid of it as soon as it was no longer needed.

ShawnD1
01-21-2009, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by: mindcycle
In other news, it appears boxed versions of the new Prince of Persia will contain no DRM.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...08132/m/6971093507/p/3 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/861108132/m/6971093507/p/3)

I've been keeping my eye on that, and hopefully it's actually true.

This one is just flat out wrong. I worked at Best Buy when this game was released and I could see right on the box a warning about it conflicting with virtual drive software. I'm pretty sure that's called DRM.

prince of persia review (http://www.emuxhaven.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7018)
Recommended configuration:
Processor: Intel Core® 2 Duo 2,2 GHz or AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ or higher
Sound Card: 5.1 sound card
Peripherals: Xbox 360® for Windows game controller

List of supported Video Cards at Time of Release:
ATI® RADEON® X1600*/1650*-1950/HD 2000 to 4000 series
NVIDIA GeForce® 6800*/7/8/9/GTX 200 series
*PCI Express only

Laptop versions of these cards are not fully supported. For an up-to-date list of supported chipsets, please visit the FAQ for this game on our support website at: http://support.ubi.com,

NOTE: This game contains technology intended to protect against copying that may conflict with disks or virtual drives.
Yep, that's the warning on the box I saw. Thanks ubisoft, you assholes.

mindcycle
01-22-2009, 02:50 PM
delete

mindcycle
01-22-2009, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by: ShawnD1
This one is just flat out wrong. I worked at Best Buy when this game was released and I could see right on the box a warning about it conflicting with virtual drive software. I'm pretty sure that's called DRM.

That was actually a misprint. They must have either printed the box art before they removed the DRM or forgot to change the description. I bought the game and can confirm that it contains no DRM whatsoever.[/quote]