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Chiropteran
05-24-2011, 10:57 PM
edit: this post is very obsolete, because mining bitcoin with GPU is not viable anymore. However, I will leave it as-is as an interesting look at how things were a few years ago.

For modern GPU mining, scrypt based coins such as litecoin are the best bet.

<Newbie info>

How do I get started mining?

1- download the bitcoin client, install and run, this gives you a wallet and receiving address
http://bitcoin.org/
Current version is 0.7

2- choose a pool and create a pool account (some pools works without accounts), and create (at least one) worker account
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?board=41.0
[I use https://www.btcguild.com/ ]

3- download a miner program and install and run
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3878.0

3b- if you don't see your graphic card as a valid openCL device, you might need to update to more recent drivers. catalyst 11.5, 11.6 are known to work, older drivers may not include the openCL driver new 12.2 drivers reported to be very good for mining

4- configure your miner. point it to the pool you signed up at, your pool worker account you created, for extra flags -v -w128 -f120 is recommended for 5 and 6 series AMD GPUs if you want to also use the computer for other uses. If you are only going to mine and don't need a response GUI, you can use -v -w128 -f0 and you will get slightly more mhash. * These settings are for guiminer* Other miner software requires different settings

5- start mining. you may want to open a program that allows you to view your GPU temperature, as mining is makes the GPU work very hard and you don't want to damage your graphic card

6- tweak settings, OC, buy more mining hardware, or post in this thread.

7- spend your bitcoins

FUN FACTS:

Since the original post aprox 3 weeks ago, I have mined 44 bitcoins, currently valued at $16.80 each. That totals $739. I am mining on 1 dedicated dual 5850 machine, another dual GPU machine I use for gaming, as well as 3 single GPU 5850-5770 machines I had available. I spent aprox $900 on hardware to mine at this rate (in addition to old hardware I had available). Even if I could only get 50% of original hardware value on resale, the operation has already paid for itself.

6/30 update: I spent 34 bitcoins on about $550 worth of hardware at newegg.com to add to my mining collection. If the whole thing collapses tomorrow, at least I have some "free" hardware.

2/19/2012 update-

Heh, looking at this post reminds me of the good old days of $16 bitcoins. Value now around $4.50. Still somewhat profitable though, especially given that waste heat is a useful thing in these winter months. Recently spent some 80 BTC to build another mining box.


Old OP: Does anyone do this? I have played around with distributed computing stuff before, but lost interest mainly due to there being no real point other than bragging rights. But bitcoins are worth real money... sorta (after an hour I've made half a cent with the CPU miner, although it looks like using GPU is much more effective). Not really much, but kinda fun to play around with at least.

I found it interesting that for various reasons AMD is vastly superior to nvidia in this.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Why_a_GPU_mines_faster_than_a_CPU#Why_are_AMD_GPUs _faster_than_Nvidia_GPUs?

Anyone else messed around with this? Tips?

edit: I realize there is a distributed computing forum, but I am bringing up the AMD/nVidia performance disparity and I think it fits better with video card discussion. Feel free to move if disagreed.

Renamed to "Cryptocoin Mining?" because no one mines Bitcoins on GPUs anymore
-ViRGE

Arkadrel
05-25-2011, 03:37 AM
There has to be a catch, there always is.

You dont get anything for free, and your pc doing some random workload which turns into a currency is just odd.

Im willing to bet the guy behinde it will eventually screw everyone over somehow.
Kinda like those pyramid schemes...

at80eighty
05-25-2011, 06:38 AM
that site looks pretty shady to me too

airdata
05-25-2011, 07:24 AM
move along... nothing to see here !

imaheadcase
05-25-2011, 08:11 AM
Its pretty interesting to read about it. I think like 42 million worth of bitcoins are out there as of now. You can buy actual stuff with them so its not real shady. Just not popular.

Chiropteran
05-25-2011, 08:33 AM
Im willing to bet the guy behinde it will eventually screw everyone over somehow.
Kinda like those pyramid schemes...

It's all open source, smarter people have looked at it and seem to trust it.

But I am just playing around with it, I am not about to convert all my cash to bitcoins.

Anyway, to get the topic related to this forum, anyone have any thoughts about how AMD cards are so superior for this sort of work?

This approximate 2x-3x performance difference exists across the entire range of AMD and Nvidia GPUs. It is noticeably visible in all ALU-bound GPGPU workloads such as Bitcoin, password bruteforcers, etc."

Reviews on cards always seem to hint that nVidia's cuda is an advantage, but based on this it seems like for a whole category of GPU processing AMD is vastly superior. Is there another area where nVidia's advantage over AMD is similarly massive?

veri745
05-25-2011, 09:23 AM
The Radeons seem to do better on massively parallel integer workloads, which is exactly what cryptography is.

It seems the same sort of thing is the basis for "finding" and processing these bitcoin transactions.

notty22
05-25-2011, 09:23 AM
Folding@home favors Nvidia cards.
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/04/26/best-graphics-card-for-folding/3

betasub
05-25-2011, 10:08 AM
^ Congratulations. Another triumph.

Back to the topic:

http://www.weusecoins.com/mining-guide.php
has a brief technical explanation of the crytographic hashing required for bitcoin mining, and

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
has a list of actual performance achieved by various GPU & CPU (see the Mhash/s and Mhash/J column for raw speed & efficiency).

Kenmitch
05-25-2011, 10:32 AM
It's all open source, smarter people have looked at it and seem to trust it.

But I am just playing around with it, I am not about to convert all my cash to bitcoins.

Anyway, to get the topic related to this forum, anyone have any thoughts about how AMD cards are so superior for this sort of work?



Reviews on cards always seem to hint that nVidia's cuda is an advantage, but based on this it seems like for a whole category of GPU processing AMD is vastly superior. Is there another area where nVidia's advantage over AMD is similarly massive?

Response to question:

Folding@home favors Nvidia cards.
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/04/26/best-graphics-card-for-folding/3

Scratches head and wonders:

^ Congratulations. Another triumph.

Back to the topic:

http://www.weusecoins.com/mining-guide.php
has a brief technical explanation of the crytographic hashing required for bitcoin mining, and

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
has a list of actual performance achieved by various GPU & CPU (see the Mhash/s and Mhash/J column for raw speed & efficiency).

??? :)

betasub
05-25-2011, 10:41 AM
???

Fair enough. I was looking at title and OP's initial questions & missed this final question in a later post opening out the topic. :)

Dark Shroud
05-25-2011, 11:07 AM
I just started mining the other day because running the main client alone for a week didn't get me anything. The official client at this time appears to only use the CPU.

With the GUIMiner client and deepbit.net I'm earning 1 bitcoin a day running on my HD 6970.

The catch is that the people who supply the services change a service fee. They take a small percentage.

TheUnk
05-25-2011, 11:24 AM
But bitcoins are worth real money... sorta (after an hour I've made half a cent with the CPU miner, although it looks like using GPU is much more effective). Not really much, but kinda fun to play around with at least.


Know how to make more money? Turn your PC off for that hour.

OVerLoRDI
05-25-2011, 12:08 PM
You guys definitely missed the bus on this one. Difficulty is destroying miners profits pretty effectively. I used to make ~30 bitcoins/day with my dual 6970s in February. Since then difficulty has increase from 25k to 250k and difficulty is about to jump by over 70% in the next ~24 hours.

Those of you who are naysayers, it isn't a pyramid scheme with a nasty catch. The system is completely open source, you aren't crunching numbers to destroy America. The one catch is that it is not free money, you may make some money in the short run, but unless you have cheaper electricity and can stay ahead of the pack hardware wise, and I'm not just talking about GPUs. People are starting to develop ASICs for this and using FPGAs due to their better performance per/watt. In a few months time I'll probably be selling all my cards because the difficulty just continues to march ever higher and I won't have the capital to purchase swarms of FPGAs and the ASICs probably won't be sold to the public.

notty22
05-25-2011, 01:04 PM
I'm glad I bought my cards to primarily play games ! :)

sgrinavi
05-25-2011, 01:07 PM
Know how to make more money? Turn your PC off for that hour.

LOL, just what I was thinking

busydude
05-25-2011, 01:07 PM
Folding@home favors Nvidia cards.
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/04/26/best-graphics-card-for-folding/3

I'm glad I bought my cards to primarily play games !Pease stop trolling and thread crapping.. Kthxbai


EDIT: Replied without forethought and not reading the thread in its entirety.

notty22
05-25-2011, 01:12 PM
Please stop trolling and thread crapping.. Kthxbai


Learn how to follow and read a thread.
The OP specifically asked twice if there was other situations where one hardware vendors cards showed superiority like AMD's apparently do in this.

Reviews on cards always seem to hint that nVidia's cuda is an advantage, but based on this it seems like for a whole category of GPU processing AMD is vastly superior. Is there another area where nVidia's advantage over AMD is similarly massive?

MY ANSWER
Originally Posted by notty22 http://forums.anandtech.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=31758800#post31758800)
Folding@home favors Nvidia cards.
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/gra...-for-folding/3 (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/04/26/best-graphics-card-for-folding/3)

busydude
05-25-2011, 01:24 PM
Yeah.. I missed that. Thanks for the correction.

brownstone
05-25-2011, 01:30 PM
Know how to make more money? Turn your PC off for that hour.

With some exceptions, I'm guessing that if it wasn't worthwhile and people were spending more on electricity than making with mining bitcoins...they probably wouldn't do it.

Chiropteran
05-25-2011, 01:37 PM
With some exceptions, I'm guessing that if it wasn't worthwhile and people were spending more on electricity than making with mining bitcoins...they probably wouldn't do it.

While I can't vouch for how valid this is, I found this posted on the bitcoin forums-



2x 550w Coolermaster GX psu (binded/chained)
4x HD5850 @ 1100/1250 1.275v pulling full load 220watt per card so thats total 880watt
MSI 890FXA-GD70
AMD Sempron 145 underclocked from 2.8ghz to 1.4ghz @ ~30watt

Total full load as read from kill-a-watt is 1050watt for the whole system which equals 1.05 kwh @ 0.072c (avg out peak/offpeak to be conservative with calculations)

So I am hashing at 420mhash/s per card totalling 1680mhash/s for total power usage of 1.05 kwh comes down to the following net gain:


Revenue per time frame: 842.01 USD
Revenue minus power costs: 786.78 USD (this is taken on a monthly run at next difficulty, so if you want to be a prune half this if you want to make up for extra difficulty increases)
Hardware break even: 0 seconds (allready paid for)
Net profit first time frame: 786.78 USD (this is a gain not a loss, and a hefty one for just 4cards)


If that is even approximately accurate, it would take a pretty massive difficulty increase with no bitcoin value increase to reach a point where power costs are greater than coin mined. Of course, this is discounting the cost of hardware, but for most of us hardware is already paid for and we would have it even if we weren't going to mine.

max347
05-25-2011, 01:48 PM
^^ I also doubt he is making 420M/hashes per card. I made mid 300's on a 5870

So pics or shens on that one, but also unless you have free electricity it may not be worth it for you (think about heat in the summer also).

Dark Shroud
05-25-2011, 01:52 PM
Yes my hardware is paid for already and my electricity is cheap at the moment. The key is having a very good quality PSU that won't start sucking down power at the high loads. It's also why many of the people are using AMD cards instead of FERMI.

My goal is to pay for my electricity and raise money for my big hardware upgrade.

And yeah I missed the boat on this, I'll be making some money on this but not what I could have.

EDIT:

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/4412/bitcoinmining.th.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/863/bitcoinmining.png/)

NIGELG
05-25-2011, 02:12 PM
I'm glad I bought my vastly superior NVIDIA cards to primarily play games ! :)Fixed that for you.

OVerLoRDI
05-25-2011, 02:35 PM
^^ I also doubt he is making 420M/hashes per card. I made mid 300's on a 5870

So pics or shens on that one, but also unless you have free electricity it may not be worth it for you (think about heat in the summer also).

Its not too unrealistic. At those clock speeds with the BFI_INT optimization and phakt kernel, I wouldn't be too surprised.

Currently electricity cost is not an issue. Yes lower is better, but at current prices and difficulty electricity would have to cost me $2.26/kwh for me to not profit from my mining operation.

Heat is an issue, I won't disagree with that.

airdata
05-25-2011, 03:01 PM
OVerLoRDI : I saw your posts on one of the main coin forums w\ pics of your rigs... made me drool :)

I just got interested over the weekend, about to have my first bitcoin today sometime w\ just a 4870 and a 4670 running. Have a 6870 and 2 5770's in the mail though.

Chiropteran
05-25-2011, 03:05 PM
This is a neat little calculator you can use to determine profitability:

http://bitcoinx.com/profit/index.php

Just playing around a bit it's pretty easy to see that electricity cost isn't going to be an issue for awhile, even with difficult increases.

airdata
05-25-2011, 03:35 PM
Overlord : Would you say this calculator is fairly accurate? How high do you think the difficulty will be going in the future?

Dark Shroud
05-25-2011, 03:49 PM
Who would you guys recommend mining with? Or would I be able to do it on my own?

I'm a serious newb at this and I'm running on Windows 7 Ultimate x64.

mnewsham
05-25-2011, 04:03 PM
I use slush's pool, but using a 5870m i only get about 140Mhash/s

Chiropteran
05-25-2011, 05:05 PM
I use slush's pool, but using a 5870m i only get about 140Mhash/s

nm. I didn't see the "m".

I am also using slush's. 3% seems fair enough for a "tax", easy enough to setup and consistent gains rather than lottery style mining. Seeing 250-260 Mhash/s with my 5850 at stock.

mnewsham
05-25-2011, 05:21 PM
Yea only problem is heat, with ambient temps around 28C here i am getting a load temp of 105C on the GPU :P

brownstone
05-25-2011, 05:47 PM
Overlord : Would you say this calculator is fairly accurate? How high do you think the difficulty will be going in the future?

I think it gives an overly optimistic view as it does not take into account difficulty increases or mining pool reality. Just my .02

tigersty1e
05-25-2011, 06:44 PM
How much money are we talking about? Say I take my 6950 (more like a 6970) and run this 8 hours a day (160 hours a month).

How much money would this gross on average? (not counting cost)

Chiropteran
05-25-2011, 07:53 PM
How much money are we talking about? Say I take my 6950 (more like a 6970) and run this 8 hours a day (160 hours a month).

How much money would this gross on average? (not counting cost)

It's very random and variable.

Based on today's values, you can use:

http://bitcoinx.com/profit/index.php

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison says your "6970" might be 370 Mhash/s

Leaving defaults otherwise, except putting $250 for hardware costs, I get:

Revenue per time frame: 371.65 USD
Revenue minus power costs: 316.86 USD
Hardware break even: 24 days
Net profit first time frame: 66.86 USD

Removing hardware cost,

Revenue per time frame: 371.65 USD
Revenue minus power costs: 316.86 USD
Hardware break even: 0 seconds
Net profit first time frame: 316.86 USD

However, keep in mind these numbers are very random in reality, and the difficulty increase will reduce income, differing power costs will effect things, and differing usd/bitcoin conversion rates will change the numbers. It was $7.40 per bitcoin this morning, tonight it's $8 per.

OVerLoRDI
05-25-2011, 08:12 PM
Difficulty follows price.

Difficulty is a moving average, so massive difficulty increases follow massive price increase by a few weeks. Currently difficulty is catching up from the recent price rally to the $7-8 range, which is why we are seeing a 70% jump in difficulty tomorrow. I would not be surprised by another jump of the same amount after that.

How high will it go? As long as is is profitable for people to keep buying hardware and adding it to the network difficulty will increase. So it depends on a number of factors, what the exchange rate is, how much it costs to produce a block on average, etc.

For example, a 6970 will pull in about ~1.4 btc/day running 24/7 dedicated. However this number is changing, in 18 hours difficulty is forecasted to jump from 247k to 425k. This will reduce your generation to 0.85 btc/day. Assuming difficulty continues to increase (and I would bet all of my bitcoins on it) in about 2 weeks that number will be reduced again. By 70% again? not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw another 40-50% increase in difficulty. So then you'd be making about 0.58 btc/day.

Unless you believe that price will continue to rise as it has, I wouldn't purchase hardware to mine bitcoins, because it would take you a very long time to recover you initial investment.

Also if you believe the price is going to rise as it has, just buy bitcoins on an exchange and sell them when the price goes up.

I bought most of the hardware in my signature back when difficulty was 1/10th of what it is now. I lucked out by discovering earlier than most.

sandorski
05-25-2011, 08:17 PM
Bitcoins biggest problem is that there is very little to use Bitcoins for. Basically most of the activity is based around converting them into more established Currency. I highly suspect it will eventually fail, but until it does many people will make decent $ doing it.

OVerLoRDI
05-25-2011, 08:29 PM
Bitcoins biggest problem is that there is very little to use Bitcoins for. Basically most of the activity is based around converting them into more established Currency. I highly suspect it will eventually fail, but until it does many people will make decent $ doing it.

You are correct sir. The market is hugely based on speculation. People buy and hold coins purely to hope they will go higher. Press hits, forum hits and such cause people to buy up coins and drive the price higher. Because the value of them is so volatile it is extremely inconvenient to use them for any real transactions.

Effort is constantly being made to spread their use beyond speculation, but it is slow going. Do I think bitcoin will fail? I'm not sure, but I'm holding onto a shiny pile of coins just in case :P

Dark Shroud
05-25-2011, 10:27 PM
I think BitCoins will fail eventually especially if none of the big sites will accept them. If Amazon or Newegg accepted BitCoins I would be very happy. Also the main client sucks pretty badly; I wasted a week using that thing. How can it not have an option to run on the GPU at this point in time? These things are going to get too hard to produce. So at a certain point we’re going to need super computers or even larger mining pools to start generating BitCoins.

Right now I only have 3 so far. If I had discovered mining at least a week earlier let alone a month I’d be in a very different position. This is the first time I’m wishing I had waited to buy a video card and purchased the HD 6970 Asus DirectCU version instead of my normal one.

mnewsham
05-25-2011, 10:45 PM
I think BitCoins will fail eventually especially if none of the big sites will accept them. If Amazon or Newegg accepted BitCoins I would be very happy. Also the main client sucks pretty badly; I wasted a week using that thing. How can it not have an option to run on the GPU at this point in time? These things are going to get too hard to produce. So at a certain point were going to need super computers or even larger mining pools to start generating BitCoins.

Right now I only have 3 so far. If I had discovered mining at least a week earlier let alone a month Id be in a very different position. This is the first time Im wishing I had waited to buy a video card and purchased the HD 6970 Asus DirectCU version instead of my normal one.

unless you run multiple boxes joining a pool will probably get you a steadier income.

theAnimal
05-25-2011, 11:17 PM
I have played around with distributed computing stuff before, but lost interest mainly due to there being no real point other than bragging rights.

If the only point to DC were the points, I think most people would lose interest. There are a large variety of projects available which most people participate in for personal reasons such as finding a cure for a disease that has affected a friend or family member, or else something related to a hobby. The points help some to measure their contribution and of course create friendly competition.

Cuhulainn
05-25-2011, 11:38 PM
You guys definitely missed the bus on this one. Difficulty is destroying miners profits pretty effectively. I used to make ~30 bitcoins/day with my dual 6970s in February. Since then difficulty has increase from 25k to 250k and difficulty is about to jump by over 70% in the next ~24 hours.



:eek:

I just found out about bitcoins and just spent 5 days to earn 1 bitcoin with a GTX460 (60 Mhash/s). I'm turning it off now. That difficulty bump will put me into the red as electricity here in Brasil is about twice what it costs in the US. I was at least paying my electric bill and making a few extra bucks before.

Dark Shroud
05-25-2011, 11:46 PM
unless you run multiple boxes joining a pool will probably get you a steadier income.

I joined the deepbit.net pool. I'm tempted to convert my old P4 into a mining box but the thing drinks a lot of power.

For around $300 I could set up a AMD Brazos box with a decent video card just for mining. My goal is 70 Bitcoins that I can convert to USD to reinvest into my hardware.

At my current rate I'm earning roughly 10 coins a week. If that doesn't drop below 7 coins a week after tomorrow my goal will be ok.

Dark Shroud
05-25-2011, 11:47 PM
:eek:

I just found out about bitcoins and just spent 5 days to earn 1 bitcoin with a GTX460 (60 Mhash/s). I'm turning it off now. That difficulty bump will put me into the red as electricity here in Brasil is about twice what it costs in the US. I was at least paying my electric bill and making a few extra bucks before.

Were you mining with a client that supported OpenCL on the GPU?

wahdangun
05-26-2011, 05:22 AM
I think there are easier one, compute for cash. Just google it

airdata
05-26-2011, 09:06 AM
Getting into bitcoin now feels something like if microsoft was just going public and they were giving stock away for free just a few months ago lol


As far as the talk of bitcoins failing... remember, the US dollar is backed by nothing more than debt and our belief that the paper is actually worth something. Which it's not really worth too much if the federal reserve can just go out and print up billions of dollars out of thin air.

DominionSeraph
05-26-2011, 01:02 PM
As far as the talk of bitcoins failing... remember, the US dollar is backed by nothing more than debt and our belief that the paper is actually worth something. Which it's not really worth too much if the federal reserve can just go out and print up billions of dollars out of thin air.

The US dollar is pretty well insulated from currency manipulation. With bitcoin you can create artificial scarcity or just manipulate the published value.

It rather screams "Ponzi scheme," just with a novel introduction.

GaiaHunter
05-26-2011, 01:46 PM
The US dollar is pretty well insulated from currency manipulation.

Nice joke. :)

Which it's not really worth too much if the federal reserve can just go out and print up billions of dollars out of thin air.
They don't even need to print - just type numbers in a computer.

Madcatatlas
05-26-2011, 01:59 PM
This is very likely illegal in Norway, and it sounds seriously flawed on so many levels...

Madcatatlas
05-26-2011, 02:01 PM
You are correct sir. The market is hugely based on speculation. People buy and hold coins purely to hope they will go higher. Press hits, forum hits and such cause people to buy up coins and drive the price higher. Because the value of them is so volatile it is extremely inconvenient to use them for any real transactions.

Effort is constantly being made to spread their use beyond speculation, but it is slow going. Do I think bitcoin will fail? I'm not sure, but I'm holding onto a shiny pile of coins just in case :P

HOLY cow... you really have that many Radeon5870/50s?....

Cuhulainn
05-26-2011, 02:06 PM
Were you mining with a client that supported OpenCL on the GPU?

I don't know. I'm a noob. Are you asking because of the hash rate? If so, the rates I'm getting are in line with other GTX460's on the Mining Hardware Chart.

frostedflakes
05-26-2011, 05:02 PM
You guys definitely missed the bus on this one. Difficulty is destroying miners profits pretty effectively. I used to make ~30 bitcoins/day with my dual 6970s in February. Since then difficulty has increase from 25k to 250k and difficulty is about to jump by over 70% in the next ~24 hours.

Those of you who are naysayers, it isn't a pyramid scheme with a nasty catch. The system is completely open source, you aren't crunching numbers to destroy America. The one catch is that it is not free money, you may make some money in the short run, but unless you have cheaper electricity and can stay ahead of the pack hardware wise, and I'm not just talking about GPUs. People are starting to develop ASICs for this and using FPGAs due to their better performance per/watt. In a few months time I'll probably be selling all my cards because the difficulty just continues to march ever higher and I won't have the capital to purchase swarms of FPGAs and the ASICs probably won't be sold to the public.
It always seemed like a matter of time until people started using dedicated logic for mining. My understanding is that the hardware for generating hashes is pretty simple, so you would be able to fit a ton of them on a chip. This is one reason AMD cards tend to do better than nVidia, for this kind of workload more simple cores are better than fewer complex ones. Hashing is just *massively* parallel. ASICs could probably be many orders of magnitude faster than GPUs for hashing, would really change the dynamics of mining. Could do to GPU mining what it did to CPU mining: Make it so that it isn't even worth it or possible to mine on a GPU. Will definitely be interesting to see how it pans out.

Chiropteran
05-26-2011, 05:31 PM
I think there are easier one, compute for cash. Just google it


I was curious, so I checked this out. It's currently paying $.112 per work unit. My GPU finishes 1.005 work units per hour. Over a day, that is 24*1.005*.112= $2.70

I guess that probably covers the cost of electricity, but it's not much.

In comparison, I produced 1.8 bitcoins in the last 24 hours. At current $8.70 USD value, that is $15.66. Even if the difficulty increase is 100%, I'll still be making at least .9 coins/day on average which is $7.83/day, handily beating "compute for cash". Maybe in a few months after multiple difficulty increases compute for cash will make more sense, but at the moment I am going to ignore it in favor of bitcoin mining.

Chiropteran
05-26-2011, 05:34 PM
It always seemed like a matter of time until people started using dedicated logic for mining. My understanding is that the hardware for generating hashes is pretty simple, so you would be able to fit a ton of them on a chip. This is one reason AMD cards tend to do better than nVidia, for this kind of workload more simple cores are better than fewer complex ones. Hashing is just *massively* parallel. ASICs could probably be many orders of magnitude faster than GPUs for hashing, would really change the dynamics of mining. Could do to GPU mining what it did to CPU mining: Make it so that it isn't even worth it or possible to mine on a GPU. Will definitely be interesting to see how it pans out.

There was an analysis of it somewhere. Basically the Mhash/s per watt was much better than GPU mining, but the raw material startup cost is much higher because the FPGA need to be custom built. Given the volatility of the bitcoin and a lot of unknowns about it's future, do you think someone or some corporation would be willing to invest $50k in FPGA devices to mine? It seems risky to me, I doubt they will take over anytime soon.


relevant thread: http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=5379.0

Current Performance
Device: Altera Cyclone 3 C120 Dev Kit
Performance: 70Mhash/s
Power: 2.26W
Efficiency: 30.9 Mhash/W

cost: $1000 ( http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/kit-cyc3.html )

It's amazing Mhash/watt, but you would need 4 of them to match a $100 radeon 5830. It would take a LONG time for energy costs to make up that $3900 initial investment.

frostedflakes
05-26-2011, 06:09 PM
I would have thought even a basic FPGA would have been capable of far more. Maybe his implementation just sucks? Have others attempted this?

Chiropteran
05-26-2011, 10:00 PM
Here is another thread and another implementation:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9047.0

At 80 MHps, I will need at least 3 of these to achieve a single 5830 hashrate.
That is $595.-x 3 = $1785.- at full price, vs. $190.- for the 5830.

Giving the 5830 is consuming $11.- a month in electricity, and assuming this board will consume zero electricity, it will take more than 145 months, or 12 years to recover the investment, always comparing to a 5830.

Seems non-viable.

Darvil
05-26-2011, 11:55 PM
For those of us with dedicated mining box you can easily increase the mhash. Easily reach over 400 for the 5870 and close to 400 with 5850 (the sapphire ones at least). Just modify the video card bios (although test it good though). I notice that the xfx ones are not as stable when you pushed hard (although I am getting 355Mhash with them on linux).

I also found out about bitcoins in Feb thanks to steve gibson's security now. But I didn't really pushed for it on my 5870 (although I did get 100 coins by solving 2 blocks soloing) until I started seeing the value increased by alot.

Will be interested in seeing how bitcoin will be in the next few months.

bryanW1995
05-27-2011, 11:09 AM
Folding@home favors Nvidia cards.
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/04/26/best-graphics-card-for-folding/3

f@h has a more advanced software program for nvidia. Supposedly they're working on a new amd-optimized app that will bring them to parity or better vs nvidia.

Chiropteran
05-27-2011, 01:37 PM
Reading about the crazy bitcoin miner rigs with 3X5830s or multiple 6990s makes me wonder just how much of AMD's market share is due to this one program.

Cuhulainn
05-27-2011, 01:41 PM
Difficulty is now up as Overlord suggested earlier in the thread. Nearly 450k. Me and my 60Mhashes are shutting down unless things become more favorable or I at least find an AMD card.

pcm81
05-27-2011, 07:31 PM
1.6GHashes gives about 3.4 coins per 24Hr.

YoungGun21
05-28-2011, 01:42 AM
My friends and I are jumping into this. Should be interesting to see where the next few months takes us. Even if the difficulty keeps increasing, we should still be profitable.

EDIT: Also, question...They say that the goal is for a block to be found every 10 minutes. With pooled mining, isn't any difficulty bump pretty much negated? There will always be 6 blocks/hr found, and they will for quite a while stay at 50BTC each. I understand that they will make it harder to find a block, but with the pool running together at over 500GHash/s and number of blocks being found held constant, I don't see how it really affects anything? Maybe there is something I'm missing.

Chiropteran
05-28-2011, 06:41 AM
Basically, while 1 block per 10 minutes is the goal, it's been above that number for awhile now. Each time the difficulty adjustments goes through it's not enough to fully reduce the speed down to 10 minutes, and/or people just keep buying more hardware to compensate. This has been the case with the latest adjustment, which has people on the bitcoin forums talking about the next difficulty increase already because it's known that it will occur. So you see that while the goal is 50 BTC per 10 minutes, in reality it's been higher than that. As the difficulty increases try to push it down the rate of bitcoin production really will go down from the level it is at now, unless new hardware is added to the equation- but even new hardware simply delays the production decrease, as it will cause another difficulty increase.

The thing is, while the overall rate remains the same, your personal rate will go down unless you upgrade your hardware, which is costly and cuts profits down. It might seem like the pool insulates you from this, but it really doesn't. Your rate of bitcoin gain goes down just like everyone else's, unless you upgrade your hardware to compensate for the difficulty boost.

Then there is the school of thought that as difficulty increases perhaps the USD value of a bitcoin will increase. Supply and demand, as it becomes harder to mine a bitcoin more people will buy them instead of mining, driving up the cash value. It's interesting to think about, but nobody can really know for sure what will happen.

imaheadcase
05-28-2011, 07:35 AM
While its interesting, i don't see the purpose. Whats they point when the only real use of bitcoins in trading between other people. Lets be honest, the places that do accept bitcoins is nothing exciting or useful.

To many worse things that could occur vs good with this. Namely government intervention, which has happened to other projects like this in the past.

Not saying i don't like it at all. Just to many IFs involved.

YoungGun21
05-28-2011, 01:21 PM
Basically, while 1 block per 10 minutes is the goal, it's been above that number for awhile now. Each time the difficulty adjustments goes through it's not enough to fully reduce the speed down to 10 minutes, and/or people just keep buying more hardware to compensate. This has been the case with the latest adjustment, which has people on the bitcoin forums talking about the next difficulty increase already because it's known that it will occur. So you see that while the goal is 50 BTC per 10 minutes, in reality it's been higher than that. As the difficulty increases try to push it down the rate of bitcoin production really will go down from the level it is at now, unless new hardware is added to the equation- but even new hardware simply delays the production decrease, as it will cause another difficulty increase.

The thing is, while the overall rate remains the same, your personal rate will go down unless you upgrade your hardware, which is costly and cuts profits down. It might seem like the pool insulates you from this, but it really doesn't. Your rate of bitcoin gain goes down just like everyone else's, unless you upgrade your hardware to compensate for the difficulty boost.

Then there is the school of thought that as difficulty increases perhaps the USD value of a bitcoin will increase. Supply and demand, as it becomes harder to mine a bitcoin more people will buy them instead of mining, driving up the cash value. It's interesting to think about, but nobody can really know for sure what will happen.

I guess that is the good thing about our plan, we will just keep adding mining rigs until it isn't really feasible anymore. With each extra rig, they will pay for themselves fairly quickly (~3 weeks). After that, it is profit, that will most likely just be used to build another mining rig.

While its interesting, i don't see the purpose. Whats they point when the only real use of bitcoins in trading between other people. Lets be honest, the places that do accept bitcoins is nothing exciting or useful.

To many worse things that could occur vs good with this. Namely government intervention, which has happened to other projects like this in the past.

Not saying i don't like it at all. Just to many IFs involved.

It can be converted to USD. Takes a minute to set up, but that's what my group is doing.

Dark Shroud
05-28-2011, 09:55 PM
Yeah I'm going to invest in more hardware in a month or two. Because I went from 10 coins a week to 6 coins.

My only question is what cards should I get?

Campy
05-28-2011, 10:29 PM
This whole bitcoin mining thing seems highly speculative at best.

Dark Shroud
05-28-2011, 10:49 PM
It is, I want 60 coins by the end of August to invest into hardware and hopefully 100 coins by Christmas.

I'm just wondering if a HD 5830 is better at mining than a HD 6850 card.

imaheadcase
05-29-2011, 08:30 AM
I guess that is the good thing about our plan, we will just keep adding mining rigs until it isn't really feasible anymore. With each extra rig, they will pay for themselves fairly quickly (~3 weeks). After that, it is profit, that will most likely just be used to build another mining rig.



It can be converted to USD. Takes a minute to set up, but that's what my group is doing.


That right is is reason to suspect it won't last for long.

Chiropteran
05-29-2011, 08:38 AM
It is, I want 60 coins by the end of August to invest into hardware and hopefully 100 coins by Christmas.

I'm just wondering if a HD 5830 is better at mining than a HD 6850 card.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison

5830 around 240 MHash/s
6850 around 200 MHash/s

5830 is also cheaper (some deals around $109), so it clearly wins. Actually, the 5830 is widely considered to be the best mining card from a cost perspective. A triple GPU machine with 3 5830s > many much more expensive single card machines at mining.

However, for my personal use I decided to buy a 6970. From a cost/MHash perspective it's nothing great, but when bitcoin mining difficulty reaches absurd levels I can just keep it as an effective gaming card.

airdata
05-29-2011, 10:46 AM
I just started last week....

The sad thing is that it's clearly extremely late to be joining the bit mining field. The people who have been doing this for a while have undoubtedly made some serious money.

Some of these people are mining @ 2500MH+ which comes out to more money than I make working a full time job.

As far as it being speculative... what about the US economy? The US dollar has lost something like 95% of it's value since it's inception and it's only going down because of things like "quantitative easing" and just printing money out of thin air with nothing backing it.

With the difficulty level going up, it's probably not really worth investing a ton of money into mining equipment this late in the game. I picked up a 6870 and 2 5770's this week but still have one 5770 not running. I'm just wanting to mine steady for a few weeks and see what the actual return is for me.

bart1975
05-29-2011, 11:16 AM
The more I read about bitcoin the more I am turned off by it. It seems like a waste of time and money to me. All the distributed computing projects seem like a waste. It is hard to believe that people are buying systems just to do free work for other people.

sandorski
05-29-2011, 01:31 PM
As far as it being speculative... what about the US economy? The US dollar has lost something like 95% of it's value since it's inception and it's only going down because of things like "quantitative easing" and just printing money out of thin air with nothing backing it.

.

:confused:

The $US is far more based in reality than you think.

YoungGun21
05-29-2011, 05:18 PM
I just started last week....

The sad thing is that it's clearly extremely late to be joining the bit mining field. The people who have been doing this for a while have undoubtedly made some serious money.

Some of these people are mining @ 2500MH+ which comes out to more money than I make working a full time job.

As far as it being speculative... what about the US economy? The US dollar has lost something like 95% of it's value since it's inception and it's only going down because of things like "quantitative easing" and just printing money out of thin air with nothing backing it.

With the difficulty level going up, it's probably not really worth investing a ton of money into mining equipment this late in the game. I picked up a 6870 and 2 5770's this week but still have one 5770 not running. I'm just wanting to mine steady for a few weeks and see what the actual return is for me.

Yea we are buying some cards to mine for a few months and hopefully come out well ahead, but those early adopters had to make a TON of money!

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 07:06 PM
I really dont understand the concept here.

You provide compute cycles.
Someone pays you money.

Where is the money coming from? Is someone buying your compute cycles and what are they doing with them?

sandorski
05-29-2011, 07:20 PM
I really dont understand the concept here.

You provide compute cycles.
Someone pays you money.

Where is the money coming from? Is someone buying your compute cycles and what are they doing with them?


You get Paid only if you Sell your Bitcoins. Usually anyway. There are a few ways to use Bitcoins with some Online Shops, but they are few and none you've probably ever heard of.

alkemyst
05-29-2011, 07:30 PM
To others, you are not getting something for nothing. Distributed computing is real, the research/work they do with it is real. The minor amount they are paying is well worth it for the savings in equipment, space, HVAC, administration, power, etc etc etc.

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 07:37 PM
You get Paid only if you Sell your Bitcoins. Usually anyway. There are a few ways to use Bitcoins with some Online Shops, but they are few and none you've probably ever heard of.

Yeah I understand they are some obscure internet currency. But bitcon mining involves what looks analogous to minting coins rather than trading them.

YoungGun21
05-29-2011, 07:46 PM
Yeah I understand they are some obscure internet currency. But bitcon mining involves what looks analogous to minting coins rather than trading them.

They created this currency. How, other than simply buying it with a fiat currency, would you distribute it? That is where the mining comes in. That is their choice of distribution. If you take the time and effort to mine these blocks, you get BTC.

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 07:54 PM
They created this currency. How, other than simply buying it with a fiat currency, would you distribute it? That is where the mining comes in. That is their choice of distribution. If you take the time and effort to mine these blocks, you get BTC.

I'm not criticising it, I just don't understand it.


I'll use the term mining to illustrate.

Mining involves digging up ores and selling it to people that need the metal to make things that they sell to other people. I can see where the money comes from here.

I'm struggling to see where the money is coming from in the whole bitcoin thing. Who is buying my compute cycles and what are they using them for?

alaricljs
05-29-2011, 08:20 PM
No one is buying your compute cycles and they are not being used for anything except calculating hashes that are otherwise useless. To take on your own analogy:

You are burning electricity/compute power to mine for the right combination of bits that are of value as bitcoins.

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 08:24 PM
No one is buying your compute cycles and they are not being used for anything except calculating hashes that are otherwise useless. To take on your own analogy:

You are burning electricity/compute power to mine for the right combination of bits that are of value as bitcoins.

What is the value in those bits though? Stuff I dig out of the ground has value because its needed to make stuff. Where is the value in my compute cycles if no one is paying for them? If they are not doing any work how can they be generating any value? o_O

YoungGun21
05-29-2011, 08:25 PM
I'm not criticising it, I just don't understand it.


I'll use the term mining to illustrate.

Mining involves digging up ores and selling it to people that need the metal to make things that they sell to other people. I can see where the money comes from here.

I'm struggling to see where the money is coming from in the whole bitcoin thing. Who is buying my compute cycles and what are they using them for?

Nobody is buying compute cycles. It is how they are distributing the currency. What is the value of any currency? What people are willing to give it. A currency that only two people use to trade is not very valuable because they can't use it anywhere. If they distribute that currency to people around the world, suddenly it becomes more valuable. This is how they distribute it, essentially randomly (since you can't control what hash your computer makes). Of course, the more hashes you make, the better chance you have of getting the block, so it does increase your chances.

Also: the term mining is just the term they use. Has no real connection as far as I know.

alaricljs
05-29-2011, 08:26 PM
What is the value in those bits though? Stuff I dig out of the ground has value because its needed to make stuff. Where is the value in my compute cycles if no one is paying for them? If they are not doing any work how can they be generating any value? o_O

What gives paper money value?

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 08:32 PM
What gives paper money value?

o_O Usually that its backed by financial markets and international trade. And that the supply is controlled by a central bank.

I'm not sure what that has to do with leaving my PC running all night and magically making money.

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 08:34 PM
Nobody is buying compute cycles. It is how they are distributing the currency. What is the value of any currency? What people are willing to give it. A currency that only two people use to trade is not very valuable because they can't use it anywhere. If they distribute that currency to people around the world, suddenly it becomes more valuable. This is how they distribute it, essentially randomly (since you can't control what hash your computer makes). Of course, the more hashes you make, the better chance you have of getting the block, so it does increase your chances.

Also: the term mining is just the term they use. Has no real connection as far as I know.

o_ODoesn't that make the "currency" essentially worthless though?

alaricljs
05-29-2011, 08:36 PM
o_O Usually that its backed by financial markets and international trade. And that the supply is controlled by a central bank.

I'm not sure what that has to do with leaving my PC running all night and magically making money.

You mean you believe that is how it's controlled. Because it's controlled by belief in the system more than anything else. If you think that the USD supply is *controlled* by the central bank then I believe you are fooling yourself. Our central bank is a sham.

gorobei
05-29-2011, 08:37 PM
article explaining the bitcoin system:
http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/37619/?p1=A1&a=f

they are merely rewarding clients for running security checks on each transaction. At some point the incentives will decline as the deflationary coin economy maximizes. You are a third party performing a service for the real transaction parties.

alaricljs
05-29-2011, 08:38 PM
o_ODoesn't that make the "currency" essentially worthless though?

No, because the distribution of the currency is no different than the distribution of gold. People willing to do the work and invest in doing the work have the chance of finding the gold/bitcoins. A willingness of others to acknowledge that the gold/bitcoins has value is where the quantification of that value begins. Then comes supply/demand.

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 08:39 PM
You mean you believe that is how it's controlled. Because it's controlled by belief in the system more than anything else. If you think that the USD supply is *controlled* by the central bank then I believe you are fooling yourself. Our central bank is a sham.

Ok, but surely the USD has more worth than a currency that is based on nothing and distributed randomly?

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 08:40 PM
No, because the distribution of the currency is no different than the distribution of gold. People willing to do the work and invest in doing the work have the chance of finding the gold/bitcoins. A willingness of others to acknowledge that the gold/bitcoins has value is where the quantification of that value begins. Then comes supply/demand.

Gold has intrinsic value though.

YoungGun21
05-29-2011, 08:43 PM
Ok, but surely the USD has more worth than a currency that is based on nothing and distributed randomly?

Only because the people give it more worth.

Bitcoins are also backed by markets. You can buy and sell bitcoins, exchange them for USD, Euros, and any other major currency.

It is simply supply and demand, but decentralized.

Gold has intrinsic value though.

No, people just think it is worth something. If it has intrinsic value, why is it worth like 10 times every other metal?

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 08:44 PM
article explaining the bitcoin system:
http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/37619/?p1=A1&a=f

they are merely rewarding clients for running security checks on each transaction. At some point the incentives will decline as the deflationary coin economy maximizes. You are a third party performing a service for the real transaction parties.


Thank you. So the money miners make is a sort of tax on each transaction?

alaricljs
05-29-2011, 08:44 PM
Gold has intrinsic value though.

Gold didn't have much intrinsic value beyond 'Oooh, shiny!' when the Gold Rush happened.

WelshBloke
05-29-2011, 08:47 PM
Gold didn't have much intrinsic value beyond 'Oooh, shiny!' when the Gold Rush happened.

So gold is valued for being "Oooh, shiny" and a few other properties, why are bitcoins valued?

YoungGun21
05-29-2011, 08:56 PM
So gold is valued for being "Oooh, shiny" and a few other properties, why are bitcoins valued?

Same reason gold is, some of it is supply and demand, a lot of it is speculation. All of it is just people placing the value they think it is worth.

gevorg
05-29-2011, 09:00 PM
What a waste, I rather donate my cycles to something useful like F@H.

brownstone
05-29-2011, 09:57 PM
What a waste, I rather donate my cycles to something useful like F@H.

"Useful", like many things, is in the eye of the beholder.

sgrinavi
05-30-2011, 01:27 AM
I really dont understand the concept here.

You provide compute cycles.
Someone pays you money.

Where is the money coming from? Is someone buying your compute cycles and what are they doing with them?


It's distributed computing, researchers pay for processing power... there are sites where you can get cash if you prefer, but the bitcoin payouts are higher.

Chiropteran
05-30-2011, 06:36 AM
What a waste, I rather donate my cycles to something useful like F@H.

How many cures for cancer has F@H discovered? Useful, indeed.

Atreidin
05-30-2011, 10:44 AM
How many cures for cancer has F@H discovered? Useful, indeed.

Oh please. They have done a lot to help model and understand how proteins fold. That is a huge deal, whether or not you want to try to understand what they are doing. Scientific advancement is hard work. It doesn't work like in TV shows and movies, where the starship captain visits a dying alien world and has his one ship doctor come up with a vaccine for their illness in 12 hours. We still have a lot of stuff to research, and they are doing a damn good job of it. The people who programmed it sure are doing a lot more with their lives than you are. It is worth much more respect than you are giving some stupid internet currency fad.

sandorski
05-30-2011, 11:23 AM
How many cures for cancer has F@H discovered? Useful, indeed.

Moot point. F@H and other similar DC Projects narrow down and do Research that needs to be done before the Cure will be found. Do you say the Wright Brothers were wasting their time with their first Airplane?

Chiropteran
05-30-2011, 04:13 PM
Moot point. F@H and other similar DC Projects narrow down and do Research that needs to be done before the Cure will be found. Do you say the Wright Brothers were wasting their time with their first Airplane?

What has F@H done that is actually useful now, today, in the real world?

The same argument can be made about bitcoins, while the haven't done much yet they might completely change the world in a few years if they take off and we have a free open currency with very small transaction fees and complete anonymity. Which is more important or valuable is largely a matter of opinion.

Would you rather live as a slave in a nation with the most amazing advanced medical technology, or free in a nation with the medical technology we have today?

Dark Shroud
05-30-2011, 06:02 PM
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison

5830 around 240 MHash/s
6850 around 200 MHash/s

5830 is also cheaper (some deals around $109), so it clearly wins. Actually, the 5830 is widely considered to be the best mining card from a cost perspective. A triple GPU machine with 3 5830s > many much more expensive single card machines at mining.

However, for my personal use I decided to buy a 6970. From a cost/MHash perspective it's nothing great, but when bitcoin mining difficulty reaches absurd levels I can just keep it as an effective gaming card.

I had found that chart a little while afte posting. I threw a build together at newegg and the final price was a bit under $650 with just two HD 5830s with easy room for a third. So like I thought I'll need around 70 bitcoins for hardware since I'm broke right now. :rolleyes:

The network issues with Bitcoin the last few days didn't help. A single HD 6970 will earn around 6 Bitcoins a week.

sandorski
05-30-2011, 06:28 PM
What has F@H done that is actually useful now, today, in the real world?

The same argument can be made about bitcoins, while the haven't done much yet they might completely change the world in a few years if they take off and we have a free open currency with very small transaction fees and complete anonymity. Which is more important or valuable is largely a matter of opinion.

Would you rather live as a slave in a nation with the most amazing advanced medical technology, or free in a nation with the medical technology we have today?

Oy vey. :rolleyes:

False dilemma.

YoungGun21
05-31-2011, 12:54 PM
Oh please. They have done a lot to help model and understand how proteins fold. That is a huge deal, whether or not you want to try to understand what they are doing. Scientific advancement is hard work. It doesn't work like in TV shows and movies, where the starship captain visits a dying alien world and has his one ship doctor come up with a vaccine for their illness in 12 hours. We still have a lot of stuff to research, and they are doing a damn good job of it. The people who programmed it sure are doing a lot more with their lives than you are. It is worth much more respect than you are giving some stupid internet currency fad.

They are completely different things. I used to run F@H back in the day. I did that to help the research progress.

Now I run this. I run it to make money.

v8envy
05-31-2011, 05:39 PM
This helped me pull the trigger on two $99 AR XFX 5830s with a copy of Shogun: Total War from TD. I've been itching for justficiation to give both ATI and multi-gpu another shot, and this is it.

Hoping to make a few bucks with bitcoins before the fad implodes. That way I can offset the additional $ I'll need to trade these babies for a 470 or other NV hardware when I can't get them to work well with Linux. My fourth try using ATI hardware under Linux, I'm just way too stupid to learn from my previous mistakes.

airdata
06-01-2011, 08:06 AM
My budget mining rig : mobo and cpu are free because i got a 9800gt w\ them that I sold for $50. Ebay parts/repair stuff ftw.

Mobo & cpu : EVGA 750i w\ Pentium D 925 - $0
Ram : 2x512mb ddr2 from my closet
hdd : 320gb sata hdd from my closet
psu : 550w antec true power - $30 from craigslist
GPU1 : Sapphire 5770 - $80 from the for sale section of the forums
GPU2 : XFX 5850 - $170 - Ebay
Case : USPS Priority Flat Rate box - Free

Getting 190MH on the 5770 and 290 on the 5850.


http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad245/airdatasolutions/photo4.jpg

Cuhulainn
06-01-2011, 09:08 AM
Case : USPS Priority Flat Rate box - Free

Getting 190MH on the 5770 and 290 on the 5850.




Loving the case.

You should break even on that pretty quick.

airdata
06-01-2011, 02:42 PM
I'm bringing home a fan today because my office feels like it is 90f lol

darkewaffle
06-01-2011, 03:29 PM
lol bitcoins. read about this in the distributed computing forum. bandwagon bubble aside, the rhetoric associated with it is hilarious. the whole 'we're gonna save the world with bitcoins and defeat the centralized uberbank bureaucracy keeping the poor poor and the rich rich' is pretty rich itself.

It's just bubbling and will burst eventually, probably at one of the next two/three 'halving' intervals which I think people will pick as "get out" markers.

OVerLoRDI
06-01-2011, 04:40 PM
lol bitcoins. read about this in the distributed computing forum. bandwagon bubble aside, the rhetoric associated with it is hilarious. the whole 'we're gonna save the world with bitcoins and defeat the centralized uberbank bureaucracy keeping the poor poor and the rich rich' is pretty rich itself.

It's just bubbling and will burst eventually, probably at one of the next two/three 'halving' intervals which I think people will pick as "get out" markers.

I'm generally pretty pessimistic myself. Do I think bitcoin is going to become the currency of the future? Not likely... It is technologically too advanced for the common person to trust. You see a lot of people, even on this forum, not understanding it or being unwilling to figure out how it works.

I do hope that bitcoin sticks around. Many people are working to make it easier to use by making mobile clients for smart phones and other web based services. I also hope to see more businesses accepting them (the price variance will have to calm down for that to happen).

For me, this has been a fun and lucrative project. It combines my interest in economics and computer hardware. If it tanks tomorrow I will still have come out well ahead and will be making a very long thread in FS/FT :P

pcm81
06-01-2011, 06:27 PM
What I want to know is this:
1. If bitcoin is decentralized, how do they manage the generation difficulty and the size of payout reward?
2. How do they make sure that 2 wallets do not have the same address if there is no central database of all current addresses?

OVerLoRDI
06-01-2011, 07:23 PM
What I want to know is this:
1. If bitcoin is decentralized, how do they manage the generation difficulty and the size of payout reward?
2. How do they make sure that 2 wallets do not have the same address if there is no central database of all current addresses?

1. All nodes (a node is anyone running the client) all have the block chain, see how long it takes to solve the blocks and use the same formula to compute the next difficulty. Same data, same formula, same result.

2. This I'm not sure about yet, I've been trying to dig up the answer. As far as I've got is that based on 256 bit encryption the chance is unlikely to say the least.

Edit: Bitcoinwiki info on the subject
Since Bitcoin addresses are basically random numbers, it is possible, although extremely unlikely, for two people to independently generate the same address. This is called a collision. If this happens, then both the original owner of the address and the colliding owner could spend money sent to that address. It would not be possible for the colliding person to spend the original owner's entire wallet (or vice versa). If you were to intentionally try to make a collision, it would currently take 2^126 times longer to generate a colliding Bitcoin address than to generate a block. As long as the signing and hashing algorithms remain cryptographically strong, it will likely always be more profitable to collect generations and transaction fees than to try to create collisions.

pcm81
06-01-2011, 07:43 PM
1. All nodes (a node is anyone running the client) all have the block chain, see how long it takes to solve the blocks and use the same formula to compute the next difficulty. Same data, same formula, same result.

2. This I'm not sure about yet, I've been trying to dig up the answer. As far as I've got is that based on 256 bit encryption the chance is unlikely to say the least.

Edit: Bitcoinwiki info on the subject
Since Bitcoin addresses are basically random numbers, it is possible, although extremely unlikely, for two people to independently generate the same address. This is called a collision. If this happens, then both the original owner of the address and the colliding owner could spend money sent to that address. It would not be possible for the colliding person to spend the original owner's entire wallet (or vice versa). If you were to intentionally try to make a collision, it would currently take 2^126 times longer to generate a colliding Bitcoin address than to generate a block. As long as the signing and hashing algorithms remain cryptographically strong, it will likely always be more profitable to collect generations and transaction fees than to try to create collisions.

That makes sense.

But what else i though of and was not sure is this:
They say that there is going to be 20 million bit coins total. They also say that a bitcoin can be split into many parts, there is no mention of only going as low as 0.01, so that means you could have a ballance of 0.0000001BTC... theoretically.

Now, something makes no sense here. Lets introduce new term "token" So if the encryption scheme allows 20 million tokens and by default each token has a value of 1 bit coin then the 20 milion tokens could be used up long before 20 million bitcoins were generated... sending 0.01 btc requires its own token. Alternatively if a token can have a value of 0.01 BTC it can also have a value of 1,000,000BTC, which means the total number of BTCs is not limited to 20 million. So printing BTC becomes possible...

What do yall think?

YoungGun21
06-01-2011, 09:14 PM
That makes sense.

But what else i though of and was not sure is this:
They say that there is going to be 20 million bit coins total. They also say that a bitcoin can be split into many parts, there is no mention of only going as low as 0.01, so that means you could have a ballance of 0.0000001BTC... theoretically.

Now, something makes no sense here. Lets introduce new term "token" So if the encryption scheme allows 20 million tokens and by default each token has a value of 1 bit coin then the 20 milion tokens could be used up long before 20 million bitcoins were generated... sending 0.01 btc requires its own token. Alternatively if a token can have a value of 0.01 BTC it can also have a value of 1,000,000BTC, which means the total number of BTCs is not limited to 20 million. So printing BTC becomes possible...

What do yall think?

Right now a Bitcoin is worth basically 1,000,000 "bits". This is true because the actual max number for this system (like max possible) is 21 trillion or 21,000,000,000,000. They decided to just set 1 Bitcoin as 1,000,000 of these units, so that it would be easier to handle. Now, once the maximum amount of BTC are discovered (120+ years from now, if this sticks around), it may be necessary to move the decimal place to the left or the right depending on the exchange rates. We could see something like 1 Bitcoin = 100,000 bitcents. This doesn't change the amount of Bitcoins out there, it simply makes it easier to do transactions.

Yes bitcoins can be split up as many ways as possible. This is what I have confirmed so far from my pool waiting to be sent to my wallet: 1.66271278 BTC.

As far as the difficulty is concerned, the algorithm is already set. The only variable really is how many blocks are being mined per hour (the target is 6 per hour), so it changes based on that.

2 wallets can have the same address. You can have as many versions of your own wallet as you want. However, you can't double spend. The network confirms every transaction on its own, so everybody knows what everybody else is doing. If your wallet tries to spend twice, you will get caught by the network. It obviously isn't a privacy issue to have things checked this way since your wallet address is just a hash, and you can change that whenever you want.

Chiropteran
06-01-2011, 10:01 PM
It's just bubbling and will burst eventually, probably at one of the next two/three 'halving' intervals which I think people will pick as "get out" markers.

It's interesting, because while you might think that at first, the genius design of the system discourages that. Bitcoin production is not free, it costs time and hardware. This cost is increasing each week during the difficulty adjustment. As a result, bitcoins will probably never be easier to mine than they are this week. And next week again will be the easiest mining week, compared to all following weeks. This constant increasing difficulty means that if you do decide to bail out and take your cash, when you get back in it'll take you far longer to mine the same number of bitcoins... this creates incentive to hold onto your coins, rather than dump them.

hawtdawg
06-01-2011, 10:09 PM
To those of you complaining that Bitcoin mining isn't doing anything useful compared to something like Folding@Home, you're looking at it all wrong.

Don't look at mining as a way to make money. Look at it as creating a new currency. A currency that cannot be manipulated or controlled by any government or bank. A currency that cannot be taxed.

pcm81
06-02-2011, 12:29 AM
To those of you complaining that Bitcoin mining isn't doing anything useful compared to something like Folding@Home, you're looking at it all wrong.

Don't look at mining as a way to make money. Look at it as creating a new currency. A currency that cannot be manipulated or controlled by any government or bank. A currency that cannot be taxed.


Personnally i am just looking at it as running my pc 24/7 to pay my rent + electic.

Vesku
06-02-2011, 01:40 AM
I'm sitting here wishing I'd stuck with Bitcoin generating when I looked into it last year. Now I'm starting well into the difficulty increases AND nVidia cards apparently get 1/6th or so the Mhash/s of equivalent AMD cards. Wish I'd jumped on that Sapphire 5850 deal now. =S

Dark Shroud
06-02-2011, 04:25 AM
Yeah I don't know what’s happening to the network but I'm two days behind on mining now. I've only got about 7 coins when I should have 10. I need 12 coins to buy a new HD 5830 for mining.

I'm using my gaming rig and it's a bit troublesome since I only have a HD 6970 and P67 chipset instead of Z68 with Virtu that would solve my usability problems.

wbynum
06-02-2011, 09:34 AM
I'm sitting here wishing I'd stuck with Bitcoin generating when I looked into it last year. Now I'm starting well into the difficulty increases AND nVidia cards apparently get 1/6th or so the Mhash/s of equivalent AMD cards. Wish I'd jumped on that Sapphire 5850 deal now. =S

You ain't the only one wishing they had started last year. I ran folding all fall/winter on two boxes. Would have been much more profitable to mine bitcoins.

What was the 5850 deal? If that is no longer available then you can pick up 5830 cards on Tiger Direct and Newegg for around $100. I have 5 on order. Three are going in an i7 box and two are going in an old AMD socket 939 box.

Vesku
06-02-2011, 10:29 AM
Sapphire had a custom PCB 5850 for $140 ish for a week or two. Clearing out unsold chips by putting them on 6850 skeletons it seemed. I do have a 5830 on order though and it seems if I get one that OCs decently then the price/performance should match that 5850. It's just if the bitcoin thing fades in the next 6 months I would rather have a 5850 in that box than a 5830, oh well.

darkewaffle
06-02-2011, 11:11 AM
It's interesting, because while you might think that at first, the genius design of the system discourages that. Bitcoin production is not free, it costs time and hardware. This cost is increasing each week during the difficulty adjustment. As a result, bitcoins will probably never be easier to mine than they are this week. And next week again will be the easiest mining week, compared to all following weeks. This constant increasing difficulty means that if you do decide to bail out and take your cash, when you get back in it'll take you far longer to mine the same number of bitcoins... this creates incentive to hold onto your coins, rather than dump them.

Why would someone bail out and then try to get back in? That defeats the purpose of bailing.

Increasing difficulty does one thing; it creates concern that people will earn fewer coins. This concern is what will cause most people to then do one of two things, hoard or bail. The problem is bitcoins are not being treated like a currency, but a commodity. People don't want to spend them as their value creeps higher and higher, so they are either going to hold them as an investment or cashout and take a profit. It's a bubble because the coins are largely only in the hands of the buyers and sellers, and when they aren't actually being spent they lose mindshare and their value starts becoming suspect. Whether it's at a certain coin price, or certain difficulty level or certain halving interval, I think it's bound to happen in the relatively near future.

hans030390
06-02-2011, 11:30 AM
Which pool is most likely to get me the most bitcoins with a 5770? I know it won't be much, but I'm just wondering if joining a bigger one (like deepbit) or a smaller one would turn out better for me.

Vesku
06-02-2011, 12:38 PM
All the pools I've seen payout based on work % so you are good with any of them. Main differentiating factor is pool fee % and I would think pool uptime %.

YoungGun21
06-02-2011, 09:02 PM
Over time the pools payout should all be the same, the variance is the only difference. Bigger pools discover more blocks, so the payout is steadier. Smaller pools may go hours or days without a block.

Chiropteran
06-03-2011, 06:18 AM
$12.90, wow. Peaked at $14 briefly last night, seems to be heading back in that direction.


Know how to make more money? Turn your PC off for that hour.

Up to $143 value in bitcoins after mining for a week and a half. I have a feeling this will more than cover the cost of electricity.

hans030390
06-03-2011, 08:14 AM
$12.90, wow. Peaked at $14 briefly last night, seems to be heading back in that direction.

I bet this has a quite a bit to do with recent news articles regarding bitcoins and purchasing illegal substances online. I saw it on Kotaku originally, but the news has spread.

I'm sure a LOT of people became very interested in bitcoins after that.

birthdaymonkey
06-03-2011, 10:53 AM
Would it be possible to throw a 5830 into my i5 750 rig (which already has a 560 Ti) and use the 5830 to mine while using the 560 for games? Motherboard is Crossfire capable...

Chiropteran
06-03-2011, 11:03 AM
Would it be possible to throw a 5830 into my i5 750 rig (which already has a 560 Ti) and use the 5830 to mine while using the 560 for games? Motherboard is Crossfire capable...

Don't the most recent nvidia drivers make your video card explode and kill you if they detect an AMD device in your computer?

YoungGun21
06-03-2011, 11:53 AM
Would it be possible to throw a 5830 into my i5 750 rig (which already has a 560 Ti) and use the 5830 to mine while using the 560 for games? Motherboard is Crossfire capable...

Should be possible if your PSU can handle it. The miners let you select which device to mine with.

birthdaymonkey
06-03-2011, 12:45 PM
Don't the most recent nvidia drivers make your video card explode and kill you if they detect an AMD device in your computer?

That's (more or less) what I'm afraid of.

JumBie
06-03-2011, 06:19 PM
Hey everyone I was just wondering if my leave my computer to mine 24/7 how much money can I realistically make, with first, a gtx 580. And second how much can I make with a 6990? Thanks.

Cuhulainn
06-03-2011, 06:23 PM
Hey everyone I was just wondering if my leave my computer to mine 24/7 how much money can I realistically make, with first, a gtx 580. And second how much can I make with a 6990? Thanks.

Play around with these:

Mining Hardware Comparison (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison)
Mining Profitability Calculator (http://bitcoinx.com/profit/)

Neither are perfect, but it will give you an idea.

Without even looking, I can tell you you're way better off with the 6990, but there are other cards that give a better bang for your buck (higher bitcoin payout per unit of energy consumed) than the 6990.

pcm81
06-03-2011, 06:23 PM
I get 3.3 bitcoins per day with 2x 6990s, so its 1.66 BTC with 1x 6990. Currently 1 BTC is $13. Do the math... GTX590 is about 4 times slower than 6990.

JumBie
06-03-2011, 07:17 PM
A 6990 can generate about 2300 in 3 months, and a 580 generates 420 bucks, damn well time to sell my 580.

JumBie
06-03-2011, 07:19 PM
I get 3.3 bitcoins per day with 2x 6990s, so its 1.66 BTC with 1x 6990. Currently 1 BTC is $13. Do the math... GTX590 is about 4 times slower than 6990.

Can you do anything else on the machine while bit mining? Watching HD movies, playing games etc...

Cuhulainn
06-03-2011, 07:46 PM
A 6990 can generate about 2300 in 3 months, and a 580 generates 420 bucks, damn well time to sell my 580.

Like I said, all this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The price of bitcoins is based on speculation and little else. The rate varies wildly compared to traditional central bank issued currencies. Additionally, over 3 months there will likely be more difficulty increases which will lower the number of bitcoins any given rig can produce. It's a somewhat risky venture, to say the least. If you can get into it with little capital invested in hardware and have low energy costs, though, that offsets most of the risk.

Good luck!

JumBie
06-03-2011, 07:55 PM
So i just downloaded the client, and there is apparently a site that gives away free bitcoins: http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/recent_sends mine shows up as confirmed, yet in my bit client software there are no transactions, and 0 bit coins.

Also to start mining, i have to click generate right?

Cuhulainn
06-03-2011, 07:57 PM
Can you do anything else on the machine while bit mining? Watching HD movies, playing games etc...

The miner will work the GPU at 100%, though perhaps it can be configured to run at lower usage levels? Someone else will have to answer that.

With the 460 I was using to mine, I couldn't run HD video without significant choppyness. I didn't ever try gaming, but I'm sure that is out of the question.

JumBie
06-03-2011, 08:01 PM
Well im not sure what this program is doing, but my gpu usage is like at 0 percent, so i know the program is not using it. But my internet is slow as hell, I'm not sure exactly whats going on.

Cuhulainn
06-03-2011, 08:01 PM
So i just downloaded the client, and there is apparently a site that gives away free bitcoins: http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/recent_sends mine shows up as confirmed, yet in my bit client software there are no transactions, and 0 bit coins.

Also to start mining, i have to click generate right?

No, as far as I know the bitcoin client itself still only mines with the CPU, which is worthless.

You'll want to start with a pool - Deepbit, slush's pool, etc.

I mined in slush's pool here (http://mining.bitcoin.cz/).

That page has some step by step to get you started.

hans030390
06-03-2011, 08:19 PM
Well im not sure what this program is doing, but my gpu usage is like at 0 percent, so i know the program is not using it. But my internet is slow as hell, I'm not sure exactly whats going on.

Yeah, what you want to do is start mining in a pool. I'm currently with deepbit, and it's going well. I prefer it to slush's pool so far.

I'd download the GUIMiner application. Create an account with one of the pools. Use that as your "login" for the miner. Set it to the right server. Pick the right device. Etc.

Flags that you use depend on the type of GPU you have. 5xxx cards work well with "-v -w 128", minus the quotes.

You'll also want to set up a bitcoin wallet so that you can deposit (payout) the bitcoins you earn. Example: https://www.mybitcoin.com/

Make sure you link that with your pool account. Also, you'll need to create a worker in your pool account. This is what you use to login with the mining application.

hawtdawg
06-04-2011, 12:51 AM
The miner will work the GPU at 100%, though perhaps it can be configured to run at lower usage levels? Someone else will have to answer that.

With the 460 I was using to mine, I couldn't run HD video without significant choppyness. I didn't ever try gaming, but I'm sure that is out of the question.

There are command line options that make the computer more usable, there is still some lag, but videos (1080p even) are watchable with a little bit of stutter. it slows down your hash rate some, like maybe 10-15% (depends on the GPU's im sure). without the command line options, you can still use the computer, but there is noticeable lag.

hawtdawg
06-04-2011, 12:55 AM
Me and my roommate are about to go crazy on this mining thing. We just ordered 3 amd tri-sli mobos/athlon x2's/1k watt psu's and 9 6950 1 gigs. with a little overclocking, each rig should be good for 1.1 g/hash or so. I think we're just going to dump our profits into more rigs until we start having serious issues powering them. Should be crazy fun! we figure, even if this thing goes bust in a few weeks, we'll have at least broken even, and can still sell the hardware on ebay.

dust
06-04-2011, 01:02 AM
^^^what's the difference between deepbit and slush's pool?

hawtdawg
06-04-2011, 01:07 AM
^^^what's the difference between deepbit and slush's pool?

not anything too big, i think slushs pool might take less of a cut (1% less), but then I think deepbit has a specific version of the GPU miner made for it that is more efficient or causes less stale shares or something like that.

I do know that deepbit has been ddos'd recently, which caused downtime for like half of a day.

Honestly I don't think theres enough of a difference to recommend one over the other. I'm currently using deepbit, but thats only because I heard of it first.

dust
06-04-2011, 01:17 AM
6950 doing 297 Mhash/s, if anyone wants to know. It should actually do a little more than that as per the wiki statistics.

hawtdawg
06-04-2011, 01:25 AM
6950 doing 297 Mhash/s, if anyone wants to know. It should actually do a little more than that as per the wiki statistics.

have you tried messing with voltages/overclocking? with my 4870m's, to run games stably at 633, i have to up the vcore from 1.1 to 1.15. But, for bitcoin mining, I can actually drop the vcore to 1.05 and maintain the same clock speed. it made a huge difference in temps.

dust
06-04-2011, 01:39 AM
I didn't try it yet. I've been mining for about 7 hours now and the temp seems to be steady at 70C, at a 63% fan rate. A little too loud though!

hawtdawg
06-04-2011, 01:44 AM
I didn't try it yet. I've been mining for about 7 hours now and the temp seems to be steady at 70C, at a 63% fan rate. A little too loud though!

You can also drop the ram as low as it can go without any performance hit.

dust
06-04-2011, 01:48 AM
afterburner?

hawtdawg
06-04-2011, 01:52 AM
afterburner?

Im sure that would do it. These mobility parts aren't OC friendly like the desktop variants, so i've never messed with it. All my OCing is done via vbios flash. I have different copies for gaming/bitcoin mining.

dust
06-04-2011, 02:24 AM
Still waiting for the confirmed balance to show up :P

mazeroth
06-04-2011, 02:05 PM
So let's say I generate enough Bitcoins to be worth $1000 USD. How do I sell them and how hard is it to sell them? Who would buy Bitcoins with real money?

hans030390
06-04-2011, 02:14 PM
So let's say I generate enough Bitcoins to be worth $1000 USD. How do I sell them and how hard is it to sell them? Who would buy Bitcoins with real money?

https://mtgox.com/

mazeroth
06-04-2011, 02:50 PM
It just seems odd that people would actually be buying these with real money. You would think the only people accumulating them are the geeks that are mining them.

Any proof that people are actually paying for these things?

Another thing I thought of is the guy that created this monster. How do we know he's not holding onto 10 million Bitcoins?

Chiropteran
06-04-2011, 04:57 PM
It just seems odd that people would actually be buying these with real money. You would think the only people accumulating them are the geeks that are mining them.

Any proof that people are actually paying for these things?

Another thing I thought of is the guy that created this monster. How do we know he's not holding onto 10 million Bitcoins?

Open source. While I am not a programmer, others have looked over the source code and understand the workings of the system enough to know you just can't do that. You can work back and see when the system started and by doing the math figure out how many 50 coin bounties could have been earned in the first months before release.

I suspect the creators could be holding onto a few thousand BTC, but not millions.

Edit:

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9745.msg141421#msg141421

Apparently it's possibly up to 2.5 million bitcoins were mined before public announcement/release. However it's likely a bit less, and/or split among more people.

notty22
06-04-2011, 05:22 PM
It just seems odd that people would actually be buying these with real money. You would think the only people accumulating them are the geeks that are mining them.

Any proof that people are actually paying for these things?

Another thing I thought of is the guy that created this monster. How do we know he's not holding onto 10 million Bitcoins?

As mentioned earlier in this thread certain commerce (http://gawker.com/5805928/the-underground-website-where-you-can-buy-any-drug-imaginable)is spurring some use of this currency. But look at the details, if you want to cash in your bitcoins. You can't actually can't do that, someone has to buy them from you at xx price.

Actual bitcoin mining , I'd be curious to know more details what corporations are actually backing payment in to the bitcoin repository. Who is gaining from the data processing being farmed out ?
People currently profiting from bitcoin mining does not mean its any more legitimate than any other pyramid scheme, is my point.

wbynum
06-04-2011, 09:48 PM
Can anyone recommend a cheaper motherboard that has two PCI-E slots than the following ASRock that is ~$60 shipped at newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157226 (http://detonator.dynamitedata.com/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?user=u00000687&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newegg.com%2FProduct%2FProduc t.aspx%3FItem%3DN82E16813157226)

bart1975
06-04-2011, 10:47 PM
Do Newegg, Amazon, and Walmart accept this as currency?

hawtdawg
06-05-2011, 12:30 AM
It just seems odd that people would actually be buying these with real money. You would think the only people accumulating them are the geeks that are mining them.

Any proof that people are actually paying for these things?

Another thing I thought of is the guy that created this monster. How do we know he's not holding onto 10 million Bitcoins?

the code is open source and the network knows exactly how many coins there are and whos wallet has them.

Also, yes, Mtgox.com. You can pretty much instantly turn them into money that can then be sent to a Dwolla account and transferred to your bank account. I have money in my bank account from mining bitcoins.

hawtdawg
06-05-2011, 12:34 AM
As mentioned earlier in this thread certain commerce (http://gawker.com/5805928/the-underground-website-where-you-can-buy-any-drug-imaginable)is spurring some use of this currency. But look at the details, if you want to cash in your bitcoins. You can't actually can't do that, someone has to buy them from you at xx price.

Actual bitcoin mining , I'd be curious to know more details what corporations are actually backing payment in to the bitcoin repository. Who is gaining from the data processing being farmed out ?
People currently profiting from bitcoin mining does not mean its any more legitimate than any other pyramid scheme, is my point.

There is no data processing of any benefit to anyone. Algorithms are solved that have a difficulty level based on the network hash rate. It is all open source, there is no scam.

People make money on them because other people think they are worth money. The system in place to create and manage this currency is the reason people believe they have value.

Also, with MtGox currently, you can practically turn your coins into USD instantly.

hawtdawg
06-05-2011, 12:36 AM
Do Newegg, Amazon, and Walmart accept this as currency?

Not yet, but it's only a matter of time. This thing is just now taking off. Hell this is a forum for somewhat savvy computer users, and none of you even understand what's going on. People are figuring it out though, just in the last month their value has skyrocketed.

Barring a way to exploit the system, which seems rather impossible at this point, this thing isn't going anywhere, and could very well become a legitimate reserve currency.

notty22
06-05-2011, 11:26 AM
Not yet, but it's only a matter of time. This thing is just now taking off. Hell this is a forum for somewhat savvy computer users, and none of you even understand what's going on. People are figuring it out though, just in the last month their value has skyrocketed.

Barring a way to exploit the system, which seems rather impossible at this point, this thing isn't going anywhere, and could very well become a legitimate reserve currency.
I don't understand why you don't leverage your savings to bitcoins right now, and reap the benefits of this skyrocketing, free monies for you !

Here is some new news about 'bitcoin' .
http://gawker.com/5808314/everyone-wants-bitcoins-after-learning-they-can-buy-drugs-with-them
http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2011/06/bitcoingoodarrow.jpg (http://gawker.com/5808314/everyone-wants-bitcoins-after-learning-they-can-buy-drugs-with-them)
economics (http://gawker.com/economics/) Share


Everyone Wants Bitcoins After Learning They Can Buy Drugs With Them




Above is a chart (http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg10ztgCzm1g10zm2g25) of the exchange rate, in dollars, of the digital currency Bitcoin. That red arrow shows the price on Wednesday afternoon right after we published a story (http://gawker.com/5805928/the-underground-website-where-you-can-buy-any-drug-imaginable) about Silk Road, a Bitcoin-powered online marketplace where you can easily buy illegal drugs. In the past 48 hours alone, a Bitcoin's worth has jumped from around $9.90 to around $14.
The Bitcoin market is notoriously volatile, and it's all but certain that there's a Bitcoin bubble (http://timothyblee.com/2011/04/18/the-bitcoin-bubble/). If anything, the revelations about Silk Road have delayed the popping of the bubble now that folks realize there's actually something you can do with the stuff besides buying alpaca socks (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade) and web design services. You're welcome!

hdfxst
06-05-2011, 12:02 PM
what i don't understand about this is whats backing this currency?What gives it any value?

hawtdawg
06-05-2011, 12:22 PM
what i don't understand about this is whats backing this currency?What gives it any value?

what gives the American dollar any value? Peoples belief that it is worth something.

hdfxst
06-05-2011, 12:39 PM
what gives the American dollar any value? Peoples belief that it is worth something.

it's backed by gold and silver.I'm asking a serious question,where does the value come from?

WelshBloke
06-05-2011, 01:19 PM
what gives the American dollar any value? Peoples belief that it is worth something.

Lots of peoples belief its worth something.

That's an asinine argument. You can't just invent a currency overnight, have it backed by nothing and then point to the dollar and say its the same thing.

OVerLoRDI
06-05-2011, 01:30 PM
it's backed by gold and silver.I'm asking a serious question,where does the value come from?

The US dollar has not been backed by any precious metals for quite sometime.

Value in a currency comes from the collective belief that is has value. For example, we all are pretty much 100% sure that we can wake up tomorrow and use our dollars to buy a certain amount of goods. It is this combined belief that makes money have value.

hdfxst
06-05-2011, 01:50 PM
The US dollar has not been backed by any precious metals for quite sometime.

Value in a currency comes from the collective belief that is has value. For example, we all are pretty much 100% sure that we can wake up tomorrow and use our dollars to buy a certain amount of goods. It is this combined belief that makes money have value.

so why is counterfeiting illegal?If moneys not worth the paper it's printed on,why can't i print my own?

WelshBloke
06-05-2011, 02:13 PM
so why is counterfeiting illegal?If moneys not worth the paper it's printed on,why can't i print my own?

Because its fraud?

Unless you mean printing money that dosnt pretend to be dollars? That's ok, there must be billions of Monopoly dollars out there!

hans030390
06-05-2011, 07:34 PM
it's backed by gold and silver.I'm asking a serious question,where does the value come from?

Well, what gives gold and silver value?

WelshBloke
06-05-2011, 07:43 PM
Well, what gives gold and silver value?

The fact that globally they are both in demand?

sandorski
06-05-2011, 07:53 PM
The US dollar has not been backed by any precious metals for quite sometime.

Value in a currency comes from the collective belief that is has value. For example, we all are pretty much 100% sure that we can wake up tomorrow and use our dollars to buy a certain amount of goods. It is this combined belief that makes money have value.

No, this is why people rush into the $US when Economic troubles start, but is not what gives the $US Value. The Value of a Currency is derived by that nations GDP, the Value of its' Natural Resources, but most specifically a nations Ability to pay off Debts and the prospect of its' future Economic Growth. It's not a simple matter of Faith alone.

sandorski
06-05-2011, 07:56 PM
I don't understand why you don't leverage your savings to bitcoins right now, and reap the benefits of this skyrocketing, free monies for you !

Here is some new news about 'bitcoin' .
http://gawker.com/5808314/everyone-wants-bitcoins-after-learning-they-can-buy-drugs-with-them
http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2011/06/bitcoingoodarrow.jpg (http://gawker.com/5808314/everyone-wants-bitcoins-after-learning-they-can-buy-drugs-with-them)
economics (http://gawker.com/economics/) Share


Everyone Wants Bitcoins After Learning They Can Buy Drugs With Them




Above is a chart (http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg10ztgCzm1g10zm2g25) of the exchange rate, in dollars, of the digital currency Bitcoin. That red arrow shows the price on Wednesday afternoon right after we published a story (http://gawker.com/5805928/the-underground-website-where-you-can-buy-any-drug-imaginable) about Silk Road, a Bitcoin-powered online marketplace where you can easily buy illegal drugs. In the past 48 hours alone, a Bitcoin's worth has jumped from around $9.90 to around $14.
The Bitcoin market is notoriously volatile, and it's all but certain that there's a Bitcoin bubble (http://timothyblee.com/2011/04/18/the-bitcoin-bubble/). If anything, the revelations about Silk Road have delayed the popping of the bubble now that folks realize there's actually something you can do with the stuff besides buying alpaca socks (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade) and web design services. You're welcome!

How long before Governments put the kibosh on the whole thing? This undermines the future of Bitcoin more than any Bubble or any other factor.

WelshBloke
06-05-2011, 08:00 PM
How long before Governments put the kibosh on the whole thing? This undermines the future of Bitcoin more than any Bubble or any other factor.


Well I doubt it will get big enough to trouble governments.

Mind you if it does start to take off it will get shut down very quickly.

Looks like an easy way to launder money and avoid taxes. And thats two things governments aren't keen on.

PCboy
06-05-2011, 08:06 PM
Don't bother with bitcoin mining please, I'd rather not have more bandwagoners raising the difficulty factor.

hdfxst
06-05-2011, 08:10 PM
It's this link that got me thinking https://mtgox.com/trade/buy.I just want to know why someone would give me money that can be used anywhere in the world for virtual money that can't be used anywhere.I decided to try it before i bash it so i'll run it for a while and see.It"s running about 3 hours now gets the gpu pretty hot(60's make me nervous) and it makes the machine worthless except for browsing

Dark Shroud
06-05-2011, 08:31 PM
I can't even browse flash video sites without my PC crashing. That's why I'm putting in an order for some cards. Pretty soon I'll have enough bitcoins to pay for the bulk of a dedicated mining rig.

If I had a virtu enabled board I could use my IGP for video & flash and use my card just for mining.

hdfxst
06-05-2011, 08:38 PM
Mine plays youtube videos it just drops the clocks to 400/900.and i guess you can cut the x1 pci-e slots and run cards in them for bit mining,so you don't need crossfire

NoStateofMind
06-05-2011, 09:40 PM
I cannot get this set up. Am I an absolute moron?

hdfxst
06-05-2011, 09:53 PM
I cannot get this set up. Am I an absolute moron?


i used this http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=3878.0 a lot easier

Chiropteran
06-05-2011, 10:05 PM
The Value of a Currency is derived by
...
Ability to pay off Debts

Are you talking about the same USA that I live in? The debt can not and will not be paid off anytime soon, if ever.


I can't even browse flash video sites without my PC crashing. That's why I'm putting in an order for some cards. Pretty soon I'll have enough bitcoins to pay for the bulk of a dedicated mining rig.
.

Do you have a 6800 or 6900 series radeon? There is apparently a bug, running heavy openCL software (such as bitcoin mining) can cause your computer to lockup if you start some other process that requires 3d resources, such as accelerated flash or a game. This did not occur on my 5850 using the same 11.5 drivers, so it's clearly a bug. Hopefully it'll be fixed soon.

I cannot get this set up. Am I an absolute moron?

What part is giving you trouble? There is the bitcoin client, which is used to store money, send it, and receive. You can get the latest version here:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/

0.3.22 is the latest release.

Then there are miner programs, which can be used to mine bitcoins, either solo or in a pool, and allow you to use a GPU to do this mining. Before you mine in a pool you generally need to create an account on the pool's website, this varies from pool to pool.

I use the "guiminer", download link is in this forum post:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3878.0

Note that you will need the basic bitcoin client running on at least one computer to receive bitcoins, but you don't need to run it on each of your mining rigs, you can have all of your mined coins sent to the same wallet.

As far as selecting a pool, you can go through the "server" tab on guiminer once you have it working and see a list of pools, when you pick one there is a link to the pool's website on the main guiminer UI. Fees and features vary, but i don't think any of the pools are "bad" exactly and the differences due to luck overshadow any difference due to pool management.

Motavian
06-05-2011, 10:06 PM
how long would I have to mine on a single 5770 to get a pair of Alpaca socks? :D

dust
06-05-2011, 10:09 PM
It's this link that got me thinking https://mtgox.com/trade/buy.I just want to know why someone would give me money that can be used anywhere in the world for virtual money that can't be used anywhere.I decided to try it before i bash it so i'll run it for a while and see.It"s running about 3 hours now gets the gpu pretty hot(60's make me nervous) and it makes the machine worthless except for browsing

Yeah, it's probably a good idea to have a dedicated rig for it, other than your main. I'll fool around with it for some time, but eventually I'll slap two 6850's in my system for this purpose and migrate the 6950 to a Sandy Bridge. I'm bored with Freecell already!

Plus I finally got The Witcher 2 :P

Edit: I can also confirm the PC is crashing if I attempt to play any flash videos. Puts a hurt on my "income".

sandorski
06-05-2011, 10:11 PM
Are you talking about the same USA that I live in? The debt can not and will not be paid off anytime soon, if ever.




.

Timing doesn't matter, just the Ability.

Chiropteran
06-05-2011, 10:15 PM
Yeah, it's probably a good idea to have a dedicated rig for it, other than your main. I'll fool around with it for some time, but eventually I'll slap two 6850's in my system for this purpose and migrate the 6950 to a Sandy Bridge. I'm bored with Freecell already!

Plus I finally got The Witcher 2 :P

Edit: I can also confirm the PC is crashing if I attempt to play any flash videos. Puts a hurt on my "income".

See above about the openCL bug on 6900 Radeon. This shouldn't always be the case, when I was using a 5850 I could game just fine while mining. Maybe the 11.6 drivers will fix the bug.

For "extra flags", I used -v -w128 -f120
I'm not even sure what the -v -w128 do, except improved hash rate, but -f is a priority flag and the higher the number the lower the priority, as such with f120 set your other 3d applications will get priority to use the GPU and your mining shouldn't slow them down much at all. Except of course for the current bug described above.

Chiropteran
06-05-2011, 10:22 PM
how long would I have to mine on a single 5770 to get a pair of Alpaca socks? :D

Not sure how many BTC the socks cost. A 5770 is a pretty good miner for it's cost/power usage, although not as good as 5850 or 5830. 177-179 MHash/sec on one I have running at stock speeds with no real optimizations.

In the last 10.5 hours I earned .32 bitcoins with my 5850 running at 266Mhash/sec. Using math, that would be 0.49 BTC/day for 178MHash/sec on a 5770. Of course there is a factor of luck and difficulty will change in a few days, but if alpaca socks cost 1 BTC you could buy a pair after something like 2 days of mining.

dust
06-05-2011, 10:31 PM
How do you check your wallet balance?

BTW I'm using 11.3 still, I'd like to bench The Witcher with it before I change to 11.5.

hawtdawg
06-05-2011, 10:56 PM
Well I doubt it will get big enough to trouble governments.

Mind you if it does start to take off it will get shut down very quickly.

Looks like an easy way to launder money and avoid taxes. And thats two things governments aren't keen on.

It can't be shut down. They would have to turn off the internet to stop it. It works the same way as something like Freenet.

NoStateofMind
06-05-2011, 11:34 PM
i used this http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=3878.0 a lot easier

Absolutely wonderful! Thank you!

Looks like I'm getting about 95 Mhash/s. Long time to generate coin? I suppose it will be with this old 4890 :(

EDIT; Verification failed check hardware! Err what?

Muyoso
06-05-2011, 11:57 PM
Currently mining at 344 Mhash/s with my 5850. Considering purchasing a 5830 for $110 shipped and throwing it in my server to just run wild. Would put me at 620ish Mhash/s. I am just worried about the difficulty increases and how long it would take to pay off the purchase. Anyone have an idea on that? If the difficulty stayed where it is now, the profitability calculator said I could pay it off in 4-5 days.

Chiropteran
06-06-2011, 12:13 AM
Absolutely wonderful! Thank you!

Looks like I'm getting about 95 Mhash/s. Long time to generate coin? I suppose it will be with this old 4890 :(

EDIT; Verification failed check hardware! Err what?

With 95 MHash/s, Average Generation Time: 227 days, 13 hours

You should join a pool, unless you just like playing the odds and likely never getting anything.

hawtdawg
06-06-2011, 12:29 AM
Currently mining at 344 Mhash/s with my 5850. Considering purchasing a 5830 for $110 shipped and throwing it in my server to just run wild. Would put me at 620ish Mhash/s. I am just worried about the difficulty increases and how long it would take to pay off the purchase. Anyone have an idea on that? If the difficulty stayed where it is now, the profitability calculator said I could pay it off in 4-5 days.

the difficulty looks like its going to be at around 570000ish and will probably change here in the next 2-3 hours or so. The other thing you have to consider is the price increase of the coins. they've more than doubled in value in less than a week already. With any luck, the price will go up and compensate for the difficulty increase. The rise in price since the last increase more than made up for the time it takes to make them. It has gone up over 2 dollars in just the last 3-4 hours, likely in anticipation of the difficulty increase. Its right at the edge of hitting a new high at this moment.

NoStateofMind
06-06-2011, 12:34 AM
With 95 MHash/s, Average Generation Time: 227 days, 13 hours

You should join a pool, unless you just like playing the odds and likely never getting anything.

How did you figure this? Maybe this is a reason to upgrade. Which GPU gives best bang for the buck?

hawtdawg
06-06-2011, 12:39 AM
How did you figure this? Maybe this is a reason to upgrade. Which GPU gives best bang for the buck?

the $150 Sapphire 5850's are good buys. The 6950 1 gig is also a good buy. The Sapphire 5850's are usually on back order though from what i've seen. Me and my roomie are about to go balls-out with some 6950's. We should have 12 of them in 4 rigs by the end of the week.

if you can find a used 5970 for a good price, those are currently the king.

Dark Shroud
06-06-2011, 12:41 AM
Yeah I'm running GUI Miner on my HD 6970. I'm going to buy a couple of HD 5830s for mining.

Does anyone know if running in a 4x slot affects a cards hash rate?

hawtdawg
06-06-2011, 12:45 AM
Yeah I'm running GUI Miner on my HD 6970. I'm going to buy a couple of HD 5830s for mining.

Does anyone know if running in a 4x slot affects a cards hash rate?

nah you should be fine.

wbynum
06-06-2011, 12:47 AM
Yeah I'm running GUI Miner on my HD 6970. I'm going to buy a couple of HD 5830s for mining.

Does anyone know if running in a 4x slot affects a cards hash rate?

No effect. BTC mining needs very little bandwidth. Much less than even a 1x slot delivers. Many, many people over on the bitcoin forums use 1x PCI-E extender cables to run the cards off the 1x slots.

Chiropteran
06-06-2011, 06:16 AM
How did you figure this? Maybe this is a reason to upgrade. Which GPU gives best bang for the buck?

I used this site to calculate:
http://bitcoinx.com/profit/index.php

Notice that even at 600 MHash/s (better than any single GPU, although a 5970 or 6990 could surpass that), time to generate a block is estimated at 36 days, and it'll actually be likely longer due to difficulty increases. Unless you have a whole farm of machines, solo mining is just so random that there is a good chance of never finding anything.

Joining a pool is really the only way to see any reliable form of incoming bitcoins, as generating a block just takes too long on average.

As other have said, the $109 5830 is a great mining card for the money. If you can find a cheap 5850 (such as the $149 deal that is currently sold out), that is another good option. You can use this page as a reference, as it shows what sort of MHash/s to expect from each card:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison

YoungGun21
06-06-2011, 11:28 AM
Difficulty increases have slowed us, but my friends and I should be over 1GHash/s by midweek. Should be over 2GHash before the next difficulty increase.

Chiropteran
06-06-2011, 12:41 PM
Newegg is now sold out of the cheap sapphire 5830s that were going for $109. I attribute this to bitcoin mining rig buyers, as the card was never very popular as a gaming card.

edit: Actually, newegg is sold out of ALL 5800 series radeon cards. Bitcoins must be doing wonders for AMD.

hans030390
06-06-2011, 01:08 PM
Newegg is now sold out of the cheap sapphire 5830s that were going for $109. I attribute this to bitcoin mining rig buyers, as the card was never very popular as a gaming card.

edit: Actually, newegg is sold out of ALL 5800 series radeon cards. Bitcoins must be doing wonders for AMD.

Glad I got in on that 5830 while it was still available.

Jionix
06-06-2011, 01:08 PM
This is very interesting, but strikes me as "Too good to be true". It just doesn't have any logic behind --- there is value in calculating random, useless code? No, there isn't.

Who is pegging the value of bitcoins? Who gives them that authority? Who's to say that someone won't be able to forge bitcoins easily, since they are only computer based?

Those are just a few things that will stop bitcoins from ever becoming recognized. The likelihood that any legitimate entity will ever recognize or lend credibility to bitcoins is probably zero.

bart1975
06-06-2011, 01:16 PM
This must be great for the electric companies. Way to stick it to the Eco freaks. lol

dust
06-06-2011, 01:25 PM
This is very interesting, but strikes me as "Too good to be true". It just doesn't have any logic behind --- there is value in calculating random, useless code? No, there isn't.

Who is pegging the value of bitcoins? Who gives them that authority? Who's to say that someone won't be able to forge bitcoins easily, since they are only computer based?

Those are just a few things that will stop bitcoins from ever becoming recognized. The likelihood that any legitimate entity will ever recognize or lend credibility to bitcoins is probably zero.

846.702 Ghash/s is only my cluster's current performance. Since a single GPU averages at 300Mhash/s, I'd say there are plenty of people finding the process good enough.

I don't pretend to fully understand it myself but there are plenty of explanatory pages here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=1ef07215906afb730b702e1cf4df04 9e&

There are plenty of cases where the people exchanged the bitcoins into real currency, so I would say that they have already been recognized.

dakU7
06-06-2011, 01:26 PM
bah. Two rigs were mining all night, 2X5750 + 2X6850 = ~750 Mhash/s.
All i got is 0.22 BTC lol.

Vesku
06-06-2011, 01:46 PM
My Sapphire 5830 just arrived, mildly annoyed to find it out of stock when I decided that a crossfire + GPU computing setup would be nice. Hope they come back in stock. The 5850 I regret not buying never re-surfaced.

hdfxst
06-06-2011, 01:57 PM
My Sapphire 5830 just arrived, mildly annoyed to find it out of stock when I decided that a crossfire + GPU computing setup would be nice. Hope they come back in stock. The 5850 I regret not buying never re-surfaced.


http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...456&amp;CatId=3669 (http://detonator.dynamitedata.com/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?user=u00000687&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tigerdirect.com%2Fapplication s%2FSearchTools%2Fitem-details.asp%3FEdpNo%3D365456%26CatId%3D3669) cheap after rebate

Vesku
06-06-2011, 02:01 PM
I'd like to keep it the exact same card for Crossfire, don't need to add in anymore variables for multi-gpu. Decent in stock card for fellow miners though.

Chiropteran
06-06-2011, 02:16 PM
I'd like to keep it the exact same card for Crossfire, don't need to add in anymore variables for multi-gpu. Decent in stock card for fellow miners though.

I'd tell you that amazon has the sapphire 5830 for sale for $118... but I just bought the last one.

hans030390
06-06-2011, 04:04 PM
846.702 Ghash/s is only my cluster's current performance.

Wow! You personally have a cluster running that? What hardware is behind that?

dakU7
06-06-2011, 04:05 PM
I'm going in vacation next week, and I want to buy a 5830 and add it to my 6850s to mine 24/7 for a 6 weeks.
Is that a good idea? The 6850s are pulling 260Mhash/s each @ 85c, 65c. So I'm going go get roughly 1Gh/s with the 5830 plus my second rig, but should I be worried about the heat and stress?

Dark Shroud
06-06-2011, 05:06 PM
If you're that worried open the side of your case up and go buy a little high speed fan to point inside and leave that sucker blowing.

pcm81
06-06-2011, 05:25 PM
If you're that worried open the side of your case up and go buy a little high speed fan to point inside and leave that sucker blowing.

and then the first night you are gone there will be a 5-minute power outage, so your computer will stay shut down for the rest of your vacation.... with fan blowing at it all 6 weeks.

blanketyblank
06-06-2011, 06:39 PM
I just tried pool mining for a few hours. I'm not really seeing how this pans out to any sort of profit. 1 hour of computer usage is something like 5+ cents of electricity while the profits generated might be something like .01BTC. I'm not sure what the conversion is here, but unless 1 BTC is worth 5 times as much as dollars not sure how this profitable.

dakU7
06-06-2011, 06:43 PM
and then the first night you are gone there will be a 5-minute power outage, so your computer will stay shut down for the rest of your vacation.... with fan blowing at it all 6 weeks.

Haha that would suck so much.
But I'm going to monitor my rig from distance, and my bro will stay at my place so he can shut it off/on when necessary, i'm just worried 85c is too high for 24/6 weeks

pcm81
06-06-2011, 06:51 PM
I just tried pool mining for a few hours. I'm not really seeing how this pans out to any sort of profit. 1 hour of computer usage is something like 5+ cents of electricity while the profits generated might be something like .01BTC. I'm not sure what the conversion is here, but unless 1 BTC is worth 5 times as much as dollars not sure how this profitable.

CPU mining is not profitable. With 2x 6990s i am making between 2 and 3 bicoins a day (24 hr). At $17 per bit coin... you do the math...

blanketyblank
06-06-2011, 07:26 PM
CPU mining is not profitable. With 2x 6990s i am making between 2 and 3 bicoins a day (24 hr). At $17 per bit coin... you do the math...

I see that makes sense then. Didn't realize the bit coin to dollar ratio was so high.

dust
06-06-2011, 09:31 PM
Wow! You personally have a cluster running that? What hardware is behind that?

When you refer to the company you work in as" my company's policies, my company's office", does that necessarily mean you own it? Maybe my English isn't good enough!

hans030390
06-06-2011, 09:51 PM
When you refer to the company you work in as" my company's policies, my company's office", does that necessarily mean you own it? Maybe my English isn't good enough!

Unless I can't read, you didn't mention a company in your post. All you said was "my cluster", so I had to ask!

Dark Shroud
06-06-2011, 10:04 PM
and then the first night you are gone there will be a 5-minute power outage, so your computer will stay shut down for the rest of your vacation.... with fan blowing at it all 6 weeks.

Assuming he doesn't have a PSU for such a large load to prevent that. The fan's power usage would be minor.

Muyoso
06-06-2011, 10:17 PM
So the difficulty increases every 10ish days right?

hawtdawg
06-06-2011, 10:53 PM
This is very interesting, but strikes me as "Too good to be true". It just doesn't have any logic behind --- there is value in calculating random, useless code? No, there isn't.

Who is pegging the value of bitcoins? Who gives them that authority? Who's to say that someone won't be able to forge bitcoins easily, since they are only computer based?

Those are just a few things that will stop bitcoins from ever becoming recognized. The likelihood that any legitimate entity will ever recognize or lend credibility to bitcoins is probably zero.

the perceived value of the coins comes from the system that is in place. It is anonymous and decentralized and the coins are produced at a controlled rate. Not that I condone it necessarily, but its a dream for those looking to launder money or conduct black market deals.

it also has an anarchist appeal as far as being able to circumvent the governments control over monetary system/policy.

hawtdawg
06-06-2011, 10:57 PM
So the difficulty increases every 10ish days right?

it doesn't always increase, it depends on the network hash rate. If the overall network performance for this set of blocks is lower than the last set, the difficulty will actually decrease. it changes every 2000ish blocks. a couple of weeks ago, it didn't take more than a few days to change.

speaking of which, im a little confused as to where the huge surge of hash rate came from. It was at almost 8 t/hash at one point today, when it had been around 4ish up until the difficulty change.

bart1975
06-06-2011, 11:20 PM
Anyone else see this as a way for terrorists to make and move money undetected?

hawtdawg
06-06-2011, 11:34 PM
Anyone else see this as a way for terrorists to make and move money undetected?

im not a neo-conservative, sorry.

Dark Shroud
06-07-2011, 12:24 AM
How would they set up mining PCs in caves with no eletricity? Besides its easier for them to continue what they're doing now for money.

Rifter
06-07-2011, 12:47 AM
so how fast are nvidia cards at this? i have 2 460's with a decent OC on them and am willing to give this a shot if they are as effective as there ATI counterparts(6850's)

But im not buying new hardware for this.

Dark Shroud
06-07-2011, 12:49 AM
Nvidia cards are not good at mining. With the current difficulty jump that just happened you'd just be wasting your time & electricity.

hawtdawg
06-07-2011, 01:04 AM
heres a list showing hash rates for most cpu's/gpu's out there

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison

Nvidia cards aren't very good at it, a 590 is about on par with a 5770. And from a power consumption standpoint, ATI cards are 4-5 times more efficient.

Rifter
06-07-2011, 01:09 AM
heres a list showing hash rates for most cpu's/gpu's out there

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison

Nvidia cards aren't very good at it, a 590 is about on par with a 5770. And from a power consumption standpoint, ATI cards are 4-5 times more efficient.

really? wow, so 2 460s is equal to 1 4850? looks like whoever wrote that code is taking payoffs from ATI that is a INSANE differance.

Dark Shroud
06-07-2011, 01:21 AM
No it is the difference in architecture designs. Nvidia & AMD cards are better different types of computing.

Vesku
06-07-2011, 01:35 AM
Yes, the multiple weaker shader processor system is surprisingly similar to the hardware designed with the sole purpose of generating hashes.

hawtdawg
06-07-2011, 01:41 AM
really? wow, so 2 460s is equal to 1 4850? looks like whoever wrote that code is taking payoffs from ATI that is a INSANE differance.

Nah, firstly, it's all open source, so if there was a way to make Nvidia cards fast, someone would have done it.

Nvidia's shaders excel in FPU performance. ATI's shaders, while being nearly as good with FPU calculations, have far better integer performance, which is what bitcoin mining uses.

v8envy
06-07-2011, 02:02 AM
Also, computing hashes is a very simple process. Perfectly suited to ATI's architecture of lots and lots and LOTS of less potent SPs.

The same exact code runs on both cards. There are at least two OpenCL implementations (phatk and poclbm). Now, maybe there is some optimization to be done on the code to make it nvidia specific -- but so far nobody's been able to do it. The performance of both implementations is about the same with the same % delta nv to ati.

Also, as I remember, nv intentionally decreases GPU computing power of consumer gaming cards in driver. Market segmentation and all. I'm positive a real tesla card would turn in numbers closer to the ATI professional equivalent. That still doesn't make it a good choice for bitcoin mining, but may explain the gigantic performance gulf some more.

hawtdawg
06-07-2011, 02:10 AM
. I'm positive a real tesla card would turn in numbers closer to the ATI professional equivalent. That still doesn't make it a good choice for bitcoin mining, but may explain the gigantic performance gulf some more.

The Tesla cards on the miner comparison don't appear to do any better than their Geforce counterparts.

OVerLoRDI
06-07-2011, 03:09 AM
Glad I got in on that 5830 while it was still available.

I got 9 of them :D Regretting I didn't pull the trigger on 3 more.

hans030390
06-07-2011, 08:29 AM
I got 9 of them :D Regretting I didn't pull the trigger on 3 more.

Yeah, well...I hate you. :P

Muyoso
06-07-2011, 01:26 PM
I got 9 of them :D Regretting I didn't pull the trigger on 3 more.

Gonna be some cheap 5830's on craigslist in 3-6 months when its no longer profitable to mine bitcoins with them.

Vesku
06-07-2011, 01:33 PM
Gonna be some cheap 5830's on craigslist in 3-6 months when its no longer profitable to mine bitcoins with them.

Especially if the 7xxx series Radeon proves to be a step up in mining ability or at the very least causes 6xxx price drops to fill the role 5xxx has had now.

Desin
06-07-2011, 02:11 PM
So what exactly are you guys going to do with these bits? Looking at the sites that buy them, they aren't buying any right now, they will sell them to you though! Also the "markets" for trading have almost no liquidity. Just because a few people in the world will pay 17$ for one doesn't really mean the mass of them are worth that much, back to the liquidity thing. I almost dumped a little money into this a few months back but it seems like a pyramid scheme that really isn't going to find enough suckers with real money.

Muyoso
06-07-2011, 02:22 PM
Especially if the 7xxx series Radeon proves to be a step up in mining ability or at the very least causes 6xxx price drops to fill the role 5xxx has had now.

Except the 6xxx are terrible at mining unless you go really high end and those prices would have to freefall to make them a better deal than the 5830 is.

Genx87
06-07-2011, 02:29 PM
really? wow, so 2 460s is equal to 1 4850? looks like whoever wrote that code is taking payoffs from ATI that is a INSANE differance.

Some workloads work better with more cores thrown at it vs having a stronger single core. It is an arch difference between ATI and Nvidia. In this case having, what, 1500+ stream cores vs 512 cuda cores yields a higher throughput due to having 3x simple cores to throw at it. In other workloads those 512 cuda cores from Nvidia run circles around ATIs 1500 stream cores.

OVerLoRDI
06-07-2011, 03:27 PM
Gonna be some cheap 5830's on craigslist in 3-6 months when its no longer profitable to mine bitcoins with them.

Gonna be a lot of cheap video cards on craigslist in a few months :P All the hardware is well paid off. Very little risk for me, I'll stop when I can't cover my power costs anymore.

Muyoso
06-07-2011, 05:14 PM
Gonna be a lot of cheap video cards on craigslist in a few months :P All the hardware is well paid off. Very little risk for me, I'll stop when I can't cover my power costs anymore.

Well for you with your ridiculous setup that is probably going to be a while.

gramboh
06-07-2011, 06:22 PM
So what exactly are you guys going to do with these bits? Looking at the sites that buy them, they aren't buying any right now, they will sell them to you though! Also the "markets" for trading have almost no liquidity. Just because a few people in the world will pay 17$ for one doesn't really mean the mass of them are worth that much, back to the liquidity thing. I almost dumped a little money into this a few months back but it seems like a pyramid scheme that really isn't going to find enough suckers with real money.

This. Been doing a bit of reading about BitCoin lately, very interesting concept, but I think a lot of people are jumping in without thinking of the economics, trying for a free lunch. A currency that is not convertible into other forms of currency (USD, Euro etc) in an extremely liquid market makes no sense.

pcm81
06-07-2011, 06:33 PM
This. Been doing a bit of reading about BitCoin lately, very interesting concept, but I think a lot of people are jumping in without thinking of the economics, trying for a free lunch. A currency that is not convertible into other forms of currency (USD, Euro etc) in an extremely liquid market makes no sense.

Tell that to the $450 in my pay pal account. I started bitmining may 25th 2011.