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The Sauce
03-28-2010, 10:16 AM
This is a thread to consolidate knowledge on common fitness and strength training supplements based on the best research I have seen over the past few years. I will divide them into four classes: Class A - generally accepted as effective and little potential for harm, Class B - questionable effectiveness and little potential for harm, Class C - generally accepted as effective but possible harm, Class D - questionable effectiveness and possible harm, Class E - believed to be harmful.

Class A
- Whey Protein
- Creatine
- Vitamin D, E, C (assuming deficiency)
- Fiber supplement
- Omega 3, fish oil

Class B
- Glutamine
- Arginine
- Lysine
- Beta alanine
- Multivitamin
- Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA)
- Alpha lipoic acid (ALA)
- L-Carnitine L-Tartrate (LCLT)
- Chromium Piccolinate
- Green Tea Extract (EGCG)
- CoQ10
- Glucosamine

Class C
- caffeine
- HGH

Class D
- DHEA
- testosterone boosters/precursors
- Fat Burners (in general)

Class E
- ephedra


Note: List has been modified to reflect forum member input.

Disclaimer: This list represents personal opinion based on review of available scientific evidence and opinion alone where no studies are available. All supplements should be used with caution and have the potential for harm if used inappropriately, in excessive doses or without regard to preexisting illness or medication interactions. Discuss with your physician before starting any supplement regimen. This is intended for reference only and is not intended as a guide for anyone starting a supplement regimen.

Gonad the Barbarian
03-28-2010, 10:29 AM
Related, but may have already been posted here:
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/play/snake-oil-supplements/

BlackTigers
03-28-2010, 04:06 PM
did you make this up yourself?

because i fail to see how some of those have "questionable" effectiveness.

And you labeling anabolics as "definitely" harmful shows some ignorance peeking through. And ephedrine?...

The Sauce
03-28-2010, 07:08 PM
Like I said, based on my personal research. I have spent a lot of time reviewing the scientific evidence (not magazine articles or ads, but real peer-reviewed scientific journals), but perhaps you are less "ignorant" than I. If so, please educate me. I'd be happy to discuss specific supps if you have an issue with the list, and edit it accordingly. When I say that something has "questionable effectiveness" I mean that there is poor or no real scientific research demonstrating the desired effect.

Since you mentioned Ephedra (not ephedrine), it has been shown to increase risk of heart attack and stroke, seizures and cardiac dysrhythmias. It was banned by the FDA for those reasons around 2003 I believe. It was, though, a very effective weight loss supp. Look it up.

Whisper
03-28-2010, 08:17 PM
Is caffeine lumped in class C based on "questionable efficacy" or the potential dangers of caffeine intoxication?

From what I've been able to tell (I don't use supplements, so I don't look at very many of the ingredient lists in great detail), it's typically one of the few included substances in many supplement blends that actually has a demonstrable physiological effect. Although I have absolutely no idea how much they tend to throw in there, so it definitely could be harmful amounts.

The Sauce
03-28-2010, 09:08 PM
Is caffeine lumped in class C based on "questionable efficacy" or the potential dangers of caffeine intoxication?

From what I've been able to tell (I don't use supplements, so I don't look at very many of the ingredient lists in great detail), it's typically one of the few included substances in many supplement blends that actually has a demonstrable physiological effect. Although I have absolutely no idea how much they tend to throw in there, so it definitely could be harmful amounts.

Caffeine has a pretty good track record in terms of benefits. It has been shown to be an antidepressant and improve workout density. It is theorized to improve strength through increased calcium uptake into cells and has effects on adenosine receptors in the brain which are theorized to have a positive effect on mood. In a study on weight lifting, caffeine use demonstrated an increase in 1RM over placebo (so-so study).

It is in category C because it can cause irritability, insomnia (really bad for weight lifters), and has the potential to trigger or worsen cardiac arrhythmias if used in excessive amounts. You should know how much is being blended in your supplements. Some pre-workout products will have 400+mg per dose which has a definite potential for harm. It can also lead to physical dependency if used regularly and withdrawl syndromes are well described.

If you have taken a product like NO-Xplode, it is the caffeine (methylxanthiene) that makes you feel like running around like a crack addict. Problem is that when it wears off you crash. I would recommend using it as a workout supplement sparingly and preferably in the form of a cup of coffee before or during your workout. High dose caffeine supps are dicey.

Whisper
03-28-2010, 09:56 PM
Caffeine has a pretty good track record in terms of benefits. It has been shown to be an antidepressant and improve workout density. It is theorized to improve strength through increased calcium uptake into cells and has effects on adenosine receptors in the brain which are theorized to have a positive effect on mood. In a study on weight lifting, caffeine use demonstrated an increase in 1RM over placebo (so-so study).

It is in category C because it can cause irritability, insomnia, and has the potential to trigger or worsen cardiac arrhythmias if used in excessive amounts. You should know how much is being blended in your supplements. Some pre-workout products will have 400+mg per dose which has a definite potential for harm.

If you have taken a product like NO-Xplode, it is the caffeine (methylxanthiene) that makes you feel like running around like a crack addict. Problem is that when it wears off you crash and your body also habituates to high levels of caffeing over time leading to decreased effectiveness.

Yep, caffeine definitely has measurable cognitive benefits as well, up to a point, including increased focus and mental processing speed (like most other psychostimulants). It also tends to give many people a nice little "buzz," which I would wager is one reason they include it in so many workout supplements--makes 'em feel like they're working. Its antagonism of adenosine receptors is, in addition to possible mood benefits, one of the (theorized) reasons it helps keep you awake.

polarmystery
03-29-2010, 10:55 AM
I pretty much take everything listen in Class A daily and Class B pre and post workout.

darkxshade
03-29-2010, 12:05 PM
My supplements:
Whey Protein (1scoop/day)
Creatine (5g/day)
Fish Oil (2.25g/day // 1.5g-epa/750mg-dha)
Glucosamine/Chondroitin(as part of my 3in1 multivitmain: Orange Triad)
Multi-vitamin
Caffeine[coffee for the sake of disclosure]

I'm surprised you put Glucosamine/Chondroitin in class A. Even though I take it as part of my multi... from what I've read from several places when I was researching for a multi, it's said it has not been proven to work[joint lubrication, etc].

SociallyChallenged
03-29-2010, 12:46 PM
My supplements:
Whey Protein (1scoop/day)
Creatine (5g/day)
Fish Oil (2.25g/day // 1.5g-epa/750mg-dha)
Glucosamine/Chondroitin(as part of my 3in1 multivitmain: Orange Triad)
Multi-vitamin
Caffeine[coffee for the sake of disclosure]

I'm surprised you put Glucosamine/Chondroitin in class A. Even though I take it as part of my multi... from what I've read from several places when I was researching for a multi, it's said it has not been proven to work[joint lubrication, etc].

I too am surprised glucosamine/chondroitin is in Class A. I agree that there is little to no risk in taking it, but it is far from a proven compound. Don't get me wrong - I take it to reduce the potential degeneration of my cartilage due to lifting. However, there is research that goes both for and against its usefulness. For the price, I wouldn't suggest the average person buy and use it. For the pathological, old, or injured, then yeah, I might think it's worth it. It should be considered Class B - no question.

I also disagree with anabolic hormones being Class D. Although I am not a proponent of steroids, these compounds have their benefits, especially when utilized by someone who knows how much they should take and how frequently. If cycled properly, there are not that many cons, besides those related with high cholesterol levels. If one's diet is also in check, this can be accounted for. On top of that, steroids are effective and beneficial for those with pathologically low testosterone levels. They should be in Class E - proven benefits, potential risks, illegal. :P

The Sauce
03-29-2010, 12:55 PM
As far as I am aware, anabolic steroids are not medically indicated for any condition, even hormone deficiencies. Low testosterone is typically treated with testosterone, not steroids. Please do not confuse anabolic steroids with corticosteroids, which are used commonly medically and have very different (antiinflammatory) functions. Here is a summary article about the deleterious effects of anabolic steroids: http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/anabstereff/anabstereff.html

Regarding glucosamine, I have not reviewed recent literature, but there were definitely some good studies in the past demonstrating that it was an effective antiinflammatory and decreased symptoms associated with osteoarthritis pain.

seepy83
03-29-2010, 02:00 PM
I'm curious about the "Performance Formula" from Beachbody (Company that sells P90/P90x/etc). Here's the label http://www.beachbody.com/text/products/supplements/performanceformula/PerformanceFormula.pdf

I've had some people recommend this as part of my lose fat/gain muscle plan, but I don't know what the included supplements actually do for you. Can anyone that is familiar with these give me a quick rundown?

BlackTigers
03-29-2010, 03:31 PM
Protein
Creatine Mono.
Multi vitamin
Caffeine
Sphedrine (when cutting)
Milk

My supps are easy, and cheap.

The Sauce
03-29-2010, 03:51 PM
I'm curious about the "Performance Formula" from Beachbody (Company that sells P90/P90x/etc). Here's the label http://www.beachbody.com/text/products/supplements/performanceformula/PerformanceFormula.pdf

I've had some people recommend this as part of my lose fat/gain muscle plan, but I don't know what the included supplements actually do for you. Can anyone that is familiar with these give me a quick rundown?

I like P90x and use it, but that supplement is completely bogus. I would not waste one red cent on it. Ginseng would fall into Class B, and that's ok but there is no evidence that any of those supps, in those doses will help you lose weight or build muscle. I think Magnesium and L-Carnitine are good supps, but they can be bought cheaply individually. The recommended dose of L-Carnitine is 1,000mg-3,000mg/day. This supplement gives you 125mg/dose. The green tea extract is a ridiculously low dose. Most EGCG (green tea extract) supps start at 315mg and the recommended dose is 500mg twice to three times a day. This gives you 55mg.

The Sauce
03-29-2010, 03:57 PM
Protein
Creatine Mono.
Multi vitamin
Caffeine
Sphedrine (when cutting)
Milk

My supps are easy, and cheap.

Thats a pretty good regimen. I assume you mean Synephrine? I never tried it and haven't researched it. What is your impression?

Alone
03-29-2010, 04:29 PM
Anabolic steroids are hardly dangerous unless abused, like any other substance.

SociallyChallenged
03-29-2010, 04:43 PM
As far as I am aware, anabolic steroids are not medically indicated for any condition, even hormone deficiencies. Low testosterone is typically treated with testosterone, not steroids. Please do not confuse anabolic steroids with corticosteroids, which are used commonly medically and have very different (antiinflammatory) functions. Here is a summary article about the deleterious effects of anabolic steroids: http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/anabstereff/anabstereff.html

Regarding glucosamine, I have not reviewed recent literature, but there were definitely some good studies in the past demonstrating that it was an effective antiinflammatory and decreased symptoms associated with osteoarthritis pain.

Are you saying testosterone is not considered an anabolic steroid? I was addressing testosterone as part of my point.

Addressing glucosamine, there is research both ways. Kipper, our resident nutritionist, doesn't feel the research shows many benefits. He's pretty up to date. I feel that, if it doesn't, it can't hurt me anyhow. I'd definitely read up on it though since I've read some recent research that shows a some skew toward minor or no effects.

The Sauce
03-29-2010, 04:58 PM
Are you saying testosterone is not considered an anabolic steroid? I was addressing testosterone as part of my point.

Addressing glucosamine, there is research both ways. Kipper, our resident nutritionist, doesn't feel the research shows many benefits. He's pretty up to date. I feel that, if it doesn't, it can't hurt me anyhow. I'd definitely read up on it though since I've read some recent research that shows a some skew toward minor or no effects.

Good points on both. I will move glucosamine to Class B. I am standing by leaving steroids in Class D since I think that these should never be used recreationally or for fitness enhancement purposes (which is the point of this thread). Maybe under the supervision of a professional and even then only if proven deficiency states are present. I suppose you are right, though. 5-DHT is the quintessential anabolic steroid.

The Sauce
03-29-2010, 05:01 PM
Anabolic steroids are hardly dangerous unless abused, like any other substance.

Yes, but what constitutes abuse? I would argue that any use purely for fitness or strength enhancement constitutes abuse. These were made illegal for a reason.

SociallyChallenged
03-29-2010, 05:05 PM
Good points on both. I will move glucosamine to Class B. I am standing by leaving steroids in Class D since I think that these should never be used recreationally or for fitness enhancement purposes (which is the point of this thread). Maybe under the supervision of a professional and even then only if proven deficiency states are present. I suppose you are right, though. 5-DHT is the quintessential anabolic steroid.

That's quite understandable. It's a high gain, high risk compound, especially in the hands of the uneducated. If I were still competing in track, I'd be pissed if my competitors were using steroids. Personally, I wouldn't use them under nearly any circumstances (unless I had a significant life-changing pathology).

The classes just kinda seem off to me. Some of the class C compounds (DHEA, HGH, caffeine) have proven benefits, but also have proven risks. I don't know if "questionable effectiveness and possible harm" quite classifies them correctly. They are highly effective, but frequently harmful (again mainly due to lack of education, but can be due to their action in the body). They ARE effective. They just have some major downsides.

BlackTigers
03-29-2010, 05:20 PM
Thats a pretty good regimen. I assume you mean Synephrine? I never tried it and haven't researched it. What is your impression?

Whoops, I meant ephedrine. I use the Bronkaid tablets.

I actually liked them a lot when I was on them. With the EC stack, it was obvious that my energy levels shot through the roof, and my appetite went down. My heart rate did increase for the first few days, but levelled back down, even with HiiT, after about a week. I lost weight, maybe even too much while taking the ephedrine, but that's the fault of my diet and not the pill.

The Sauce
03-29-2010, 06:24 PM
Thinking about upgrading CLA after checking this out. May need to see more research first though:

CLA holds promise as an effective supplement to enhance body composition. In one of the largest and best controlled studies of CLA, researchers from Norway examined the effects of CLA supplementation (3.4 g/day) on whole body and regional composition in overweight men and women. The study used a double blind, randomized, placebo-controlled design in over 100 subjects. The study lasted 6 months during which time subjects were instructed to maintain their normal diet and exercise patterns, the only major change being to supplement with either CLA or placebo. After 6 months, the CLA group lost significantly more body fat (-3.3 pounds) compared to a gain of 1 pound in the placebo group. Further, the CLA group gained 1.3 pounds of lean body mass, whereas the placebo group had little change (+0.4 pounds). A number of safety measures were assessed, and all markers were not affected by CLA indicating it is not associated with any adverse side effects. In summary, the placebo group had little change in body composition as expected, but simply taking 3.4 g/day of CLA without making any other lifestyle changes resulted in simultaneous fat loss and gain in lean body mass. Although the verdict may still be out, more and more studies are showing positive effects of CLA on body composition.

Gaullier JM, Halse J, Hoivik HO, Hoye K, Syvertsen C, Nurminiemi M, Hassfeld C, Einerhand A, O'Shea M, Gudmundsen O. Six months supplementation with conjugated linoleic acid induces regional-specific fat mass decreases in overweight and obese. Br J Nutr. 2007 Mar;97(3):550-60.

bommy261
03-30-2010, 12:18 AM
ummm steroids have many benefits... what about cancer and aids patients who have trouble keeping muscle mass? if you waste away to 100 lbs during chemotherapy how can u expect to fight off illness? it is because steroids do their job so well that they have gotten a bad rap in athletics. But they are potential life savers for people who need them.

also, if you know howto use them, they are not dangerous at all. I have never personally done a cycle, but I have spent hours and hours doing research on the topic itself

My Supps:
CLA, Whey Protein, Creatine,Glucosamine/Chondroitin, Fish Oil (about 10-12 tablets a day), Caffine (before workouts), ZMA (during sleep).

CPA
03-30-2010, 03:05 PM
I'm wondering why ephedrine is listed as Class D? Last I knew, there has been no definitive study that has linked ephedrine to any harm. A lot of conjecture and "oh, no, he was taking ephedrine when he died, so let's ban it" talk but no solid evidence. Have things changed?

The Sauce
03-30-2010, 03:23 PM
Holy freakin crap. How many times will we have to say this in the same thread?!? EphedrA, not ephedrINE!

The Sauce
03-30-2010, 03:26 PM
ummm steroids have many benefits... what about cancer and aids patients who have trouble keeping muscle mass? if you waste away to 100 lbs during chemotherapy how can u expect to fight off illness? it is because steroids do their job so well that they have gotten a bad rap in athletics. But they are potential life savers for people who need them.


Just a quick question. How many cancer and AIDS patients do you know of or treat personally who take or are prescribed anabolic steroids for muscle wasting?

The Sauce
03-30-2010, 03:34 PM
The classes just kinda seem off to me. Some of the class C compounds (DHEA, HGH, caffeine) have proven benefits, but also have proven risks. I don't know if "questionable effectiveness and possible harm" quite classifies them correctly. They are highly effective, but frequently harmful (again mainly due to lack of education, but can be due to their action in the body). They ARE effective. They just have some major downsides.

I can agree with your argument for caffeine and HGH, but not DHEA. Within the last 6 months I pulled all of the relevant literature on DHEA and did not see any benefit with regard to fitness or strength training. Other postulated effects, such as improvement in memory and cognition were dicey as well. Categories restructured to reflect your good points. I just wanted to keep it simple.

CPA
03-30-2010, 03:34 PM
Holy freakin crap. How many times will we have to say this in the same thread?!? EphedrA, not ephedrINE!

Everytime it's asked, of course.

Now answer my question :D

Edit: BTW, I only saw you mention the distinction in one post other than the OP, which was just misread by me.

bommy261
03-30-2010, 03:38 PM
Just a quick question. How many cancer and AIDS patients do you know of or treat personally who take or are prescribed anabolic steroids for muscle wasting? Because I have been seeing them every day for the last 12 years and can't think of a single one.


do you of a better way to prevent muscle wasting?

Eric62
03-30-2010, 05:16 PM
Yes, but what constitutes abuse? I would argue that any use purely for fitness or strength enhancement constitutes abuse. These were made illegal for a reason.

Gear was made illegal by politicians trying to get (re-) elected by using the Ben Johnson scandal as proof that they were doing something about cheating in sports.

The AMA, DEA, among others, were against the Anabolic Steroid Control Act Of 1990, and said so before congress!!!

See "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" for further info...

You claim to be a physician and a bodybuilder - where do you practice medicine, and what titles have you won? With links please.

BTW: Sauce is like juice and gear - all euphemisms for steroids - LOL.

SociallyChallenged
03-30-2010, 06:39 PM
I can agree with your argument for caffeine and HGH, but not DHEA. Within the last 6 months I pulled all of the relevant literature on DHEA and did not see any benefit with regard to fitness or strength training. Other postulated effects, such as improvement in memory and cognition were dicey as well. Categories restructured to reflect your good points. I just wanted to keep it simple.

Fair enough, I just clumped DHEA in there. I haven't read much research on it so I appreciate you knowing when to tell me I'm definitely wrong. Yeah, keeping it simple would be nice, but sadly, supplementing with any of these isn't really a simple process. In all honesty, I'm against most supplements (except those considered class A) since they can definitely have side effects. My realm of thought is that, if your diet is in check, most supplements aren't going to do much for you (unless you're specifically pathological). Essentially, I feel that fruits, veggies, fiber, and good sources of fat are the best tool of all.

SociallyChallenged
03-30-2010, 06:41 PM
Gear was made illegal by politicians trying to get (re-) elected by using the Ben Johnson scandal as proof that they were doing something about cheating in sports.

The AMA, DEA, among others, were against the Anabolic Steroid Control Act Of 1990, and said so before congress!!!

See "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" for further info...

You claim to be a physician and a bodybuilder - where do you practice medicine, and what titles have you won? With links please.

BTW: Sauce is like juice and gear - all euphemisms for steroids - LOL.

This is an interesting point about steroids. There has been a lot of political action and societal stigma that surrounds steroid use.

Also, I don't know if it's really relevant if the OP has actually won any titles. The physician part is a good question, but the importance of the info doesn't change if The Sauce hasn't won any competitions.

The Sauce
03-30-2010, 07:08 PM
I do not compete. I lift recreationally. Not enough time to be a professional bodybuilder.

I list this information here as a courtesy since most recreational lifters have neither the time nor the knowledge to critically review the scientific literature regarding supplements. Hence they tend to rate supplements based on advertisements and magazine reviews, which are horrendously biased. As it turns out there is little solid evidence for most supplements out there. All the companies list research but it is badly flawed at best and, at worst, completely contrived and funded by the product manufacturer.

I set out about a year ago to review any available research on the supplements I considered using. My findings are as listed in the OP. Saying that there is no scintific evidence for something is not the same as saying it does not work. Just that there is no proof that it works.

The Sauce
03-30-2010, 07:12 PM
do you of a better way to prevent muscle wasting?

Glutamine and creatine monohydrate have both been shown to prevent muscle wasting in clinical studies. Glutamine is commonly used in the ICU in intubated trauma patients for that reason. In ambulatory patients the only proven ways to prevent muscle wasting is through proper nutrition and physical conditioning. Anabolic steroids are not used for that reason in my experience. That doesn't meant it wouldn't work. As far as I know it has never been studied.

PS - Do you always answer a question with a question? ;)

Eric62
03-30-2010, 07:37 PM
^^^SC; I question Sauces physician credentials for the many hinky claims he's made.
First is it's well known that anabolics are great for treating burn patients, severe anemia patients and HIV patients - anyone who claims to treat hundreds of AIDS patients without steroids is either a liar or a criminally negligent doctor. Just google steroids and AIDS and you'll see my point.
I used Anavar as a first example: http://www.google.com/search?q=anavar+and+AIDS&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Further my primary care physician on my first visit noticed I am a iron athlete (powerlifting, with verifiable credentials for those who doubt me) and asked if I used creatine. She told me what I had already deduced from trial and error - that creatine can cause PAC's (premature atrial contractions) - as I have had a history of SVT's (super ventricular tachycardia's) she was concerned I not needlessly risk another episode. I had long before given up on creatine - all I got was the side effects, without a single perceivable benefit.
NOTE: There isn't any conclusive proof that creatine (or ephedrine/epheda, asthma meds or AAS) causes heart arrythmias, but if your susceptible, creatine (and the others mentioned) can aggravate the problem.
Yet Dr. Sauce lists creatine as Class A - generally accepted as effective and little potential for harm.
I agree that most people can use creatine with no perceivable side effects other than cramping and diarrhea (many PAC's aren't noticed). But for a few people (me - before my 3 heart catheter ablation procedures) creatine can aggravate a life threatening arrhythmia - People with A-Fib or A-Flutter (I had both) have 7 times the risk of stroke, and need to be on coumadin to reduce that risk.
Even though I'm "cured"; creatine, stimulants, asthma meds, and androgen's (including Test) and intense cardio training (heart rate above 150) all increase the frequency of my PAC's.

Regarding his bodybuilding credentials, I agree with SC that it has little to do with his supplement knowledge (those who can't - teach. Nothing wrong with that!) - but has much to do with his ability to back up his claims with fact.

Let's face it, this is the internet and any poser can make outlandish claims. Without proof I figure the Sauce is just another internet warrior trying to blow smoke up my ass...

alkemyst
03-30-2010, 08:10 PM
It was banned by the FDA for those reasons around 2003 I believe. It was, though, a very effective weight loss supp. Look it up.

Because fatties with a resting pulse of 80+ and a blood pressure of 140/90+ decided if 20mg, three times a day was good then 60mg three times a day must be better + druggies using it.

It's a safe product used smart. I stack it with ECCG, Caffeine, and a single aspirin.

The Sauce
03-30-2010, 08:14 PM
Eric -

If you disagree with the list, make your case. Don't really care if you believe my credentials.

Your link fowards to a google list of online resellers of hormones, not reputable medical sites or scientific literature supporting your claim. You may be right, but as far as I know this is not common practice. I am not an expert on burn treatment.

Please link to any available double-blind, randomized, placebo-control trials in peer reviewed journals demonstrating that creatine contributes to cardiac ectopy. Anecdotes do not consitiute scientific evidence. I know it's tempting and it is a common mistake. I actually did the most thorough review of creatine because I was worried about the rumors regarding kidney failure. They turned out to be unfounded.

PS - love the avatar

The Sauce
03-30-2010, 08:16 PM
deleted

The Sauce
03-30-2010, 08:23 PM
New Rule:

If you have issue with the list, please post your concern and link to the evidence (please limit to real research studies in scientific journals) that you feel supports changing it. I will try to review the literature and if I agree I will change the list. I think I have had enough of the steroid argument. Not going to waste any more time responding to that line of question unless someone has some research to support their claims.

PS - certain references removed for liability reasons.

SociallyChallenged
03-31-2010, 01:36 AM
Further my primary care physician on my first visit noticed I am a iron athlete (powerlifting, with verifiable credentials for those who doubt me) and asked if I used creatine. She told me what I had already deduced from trial and error - that creatine can cause PAC's (premature atrial contractions) - as I have had a history of SVT's (super ventricular tachycardia's) she was concerned I not needlessly risk another episode. I had long before given up on creatine - all I got was the side effects, without a single perceivable benefit.
NOTE: There isn't any conclusive proof that creatine (or ephedrine/epheda, asthma meds or AAS) causes heart arrythmias, but if your susceptible, creatine (and the others mentioned) can aggravate the problem.
Yet Dr. Sauce lists creatine as Class A - generally accepted as effective and little potential for harm.
I agree that most people can use creatine with no perceivable side effects other than cramping and diarrhea (many PAC's aren't noticed). But for a few people (me - before my 3 heart catheter ablation procedures) creatine can aggravate a life threatening arrhythmia - People with A-Fib or A-Flutter (I had both) have 7 times the risk of stroke, and need to be on coumadin to reduce that risk.
Even though I'm "cured"; creatine, stimulants, asthma meds, and androgen's (including Test) and intense cardio training (heart rate above 150) all increase the frequency of my PAC's.


Interesting. I wasn't aware of creatine and its possibly dangerous side effects when mixed with arrhythmias. I will definitely keep that in mind next time before I suggest someone use it. The majority of users will have no problem, but messing with one's heart is not something to take lightly. Also, why did you have the ablation procedures? Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy? I'm surprised you can still powerlift with a heart like that. I'd figure it'd be one of the main stressors to induce more serious heart problems.

Mark Janet
03-31-2010, 02:43 AM
I spent lot of time based on this but no effect on my body. Finally i decide to ask my dietitian and they suggest me few of things which is very useful to me.
Thanks,
Mark

JDawg1536
03-31-2010, 04:08 AM
As far as I am aware, anabolic steroids are not medically indicated for any condition, even hormone deficiencies. Low testosterone is typically treated with testosterone, not steroids. Please do not confuse anabolic steroids with corticosteroids, which are used commonly medically and have very different (antiinflammatory) functions. Here is a summary article about the deleterious effects of anabolic steroids: http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/anabstereff/anabstereff.html


Wait, what? "Low testosterone is typically treated with testosterone, not steroids."

Anabolic steroids are just synthetic testosterone.

crt1530
03-31-2010, 04:09 AM
The Sauce is full of shit. I'm not sure if he is delusional or a troll.

Eric62
03-31-2010, 05:38 AM
Interesting. I wasn't aware of creatine and its possibly dangerous side effects when mixed with arrhythmias. I will definitely keep that in mind next time before I suggest someone use it. The majority of users will have no problem, but messing with one's heart is not something to take lightly. Also, why did you have the ablation procedures? Hypertrophic ? I'm surprised you can still powerlift with a heart like that. I'd figure it'd be one of the main stressors to induce more serious heart problems.

I had the ablation procedures because I had both Atrial Fibrillation and Atrial Flutter. They are extra electrical impulses (originating outside the sinus node) that causes the heart to contract out of rhythm (fibrillation) or extremely fast (flutter), drugs failed to keep my heart in it's normal sinus rhythm.

Like 50% of the cases - mine had no known cause. Fortunately my arteries are clean enough for the doctors to snake several catheters from my groin to my heart. Those with clogged arteries have to have open heart surgery to correct the problem.
Because my heart rate at times reached 272 (while being EKG'd), and ran at 135 + for months on end, I had cardiomyopathy.

After my "cure" I had several annual echocardiograms that showed my heart had no permanent damage and had returned to it's normal function - I was taken off of the coumadin and I resumed my Iron Warrior lifestyle 4 years ago. Actually I never stopped lifting, I just had to go home sick more often than not :(

No one's claiming creatine caused this problem. I've been unable to find double blind placebo controlled studies that show a link between creatine and premature atrial contracts - as requested by The Sauce. Funny how none of his recommendations are linked to the same standards...

alkemyst
03-31-2010, 05:48 AM
Anecdotes do not consitiute scientific evidence. I know it's tempting and it is a common mistake.

Anecdotes it the new 'douchebag' on AT it seems.

Sad thing is here you can be the head researcher for a major medical breakthrough and some tool will say (and be correct) that your findings are anecdotal.

Then don't get me started when they start talking scientific method...

The original list the guy posted is sort of dead on for the masses.

Too many people think they can buy a bottle of whatever and other 'whatevers' and just take it all.

There is much more to it than just popping pills, timing, meals, sleep, etc all combine with dosing and all the other variables.

Most here have just started in their 'reading' and think because they understand the wiki and some textbook section, they are now experts in their field.

alkemyst
03-31-2010, 07:19 AM
No one's claiming creatine caused this problem. I've been unable to find double blind placebo controlled studies that show a link between creatine and premature atrial contracts - as requested by The Sauce. Funny how none of his recommendations are linked to the same standards...

This is pretty much Creatine and it's side effects in a nutshell: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/creatine-000297.htm

If there was such a study as presented I am sure it's just due to genetic or biological abnormality like how some people are allergic to water or the sun.

The Sauce
03-31-2010, 07:47 AM
Wait, what? "Low testosterone is typically treated with testosterone, not steroids."

Anabolic steroids are just synthetic testosterone.

Absolutely right. I was referring to synthetic analogues but it was a silly distinction. Just confused people. I thought that Endocrinologists use testosterone as opposed to the synthetics such as oxandrolone or nandrolone. I know that there are testosterone patches that people with deficiencies wear. That is not my area of expertise.

The Sauce
03-31-2010, 07:54 AM
Took steroids off of the list. It's causing too much rancor.

The Sauce
03-31-2010, 08:08 AM
Funny how none of his recommendations are linked to the same standards...

Which one are you interested in? I'd be happy to list some. I personally researched creatine, glutamine, arginine, DHEA, CLA, chromium and fish oil. The rest are opinion based on general reading. Didn't bother with whey since it is pretty well generally accepted. In the link on steroids there is a list of references at the bottom. I also referenced a study on CLA, above.

The Sauce
03-31-2010, 08:17 AM
The Sauce is full of shit. I'm not sure if he is delusional or a troll.

Thank you for the vote of confidence :) Is there anything constructive you could add to the discussion? You seem to be a fitness enthusiast and respected member of the forum. You must have some experience with supplements.

bommy261
03-31-2010, 10:26 AM
PS - Do you always answer a question with a question? ;)

Do you think that is the type of person i am? ;)

purbeast0
03-31-2010, 10:36 AM
dunno if this has been stated in this thread but since i just placed an order, i figured i'd let everyone who doesn't know already, know about a great online store to buy stuff from.

http://www.dpsnutrition.net

I've probably spent over $3k there in the past few years. 90% of the time they ship same day, and they are located in PA and I'm in MD, so the $5 UPS ground shipping gets to me the following day they ship it.

their prices are very good, great customer service, and you will receive free shirts or hats or other stuff if you order over $100 of stuff in one order.

The Sauce
03-31-2010, 10:55 AM
dunno if this has been stated in this thread but since i just placed an order, i figured i'd let everyone who doesn't know already, know about a great online store to buy stuff from.

http://www.dpsnutrition.net

I've probably spent over $3k there in the past few years. 90% of the time they ship same day, and they are located in PA and I'm in MD, so the $5 UPS ground shipping gets to me the following day they ship it.

their prices are very good, great customer service, and you will receive free shirts or hats or other stuff if you order over $100 of stuff in one order.

I've tried DPS before but thought that they were pricey. I have been using Supplement Whorehouse www.supplementwarehouse.com, but they are slow and shipping is pricey, and their website sucks ass. I did love their price-matching feature, though. My new fav is Prosource.net. They seem to have everything and ship quickly and cheaply.

Eric62
03-31-2010, 02:06 PM
OK Doctor Sauce, as a physician I'm sure you have access to Pharmacotherapy, issue 2005;25:762-764.
I haven't read the article (as I'm a medical outsider), but it is used as a reference for Lone atrial fibrillation associated with creatine monohydrate supplementation.

M0oG0oGaiPan
03-31-2010, 02:14 PM
OK Doctor Sauce, as a physician I'm sure you have access to Pharmacotherapy, issue 2005;25:762-764.
I haven't read the article (as I'm a medical outsider), but it is used as a reference for Lone atrial fibrillation associated with creatine monohydrate supplementation.

You can read it here: http://www.atypon-link.com/PPI/doi/abs/10.1592/phco.25.5.762.63580?%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3EcookieSet=1&journalCode=phco

I did an advanced search on google scholar.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=creatine&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=Pharmacotherapy&as_ylo=2005&as_yhi=2006&as_sdt=1.&as_sdtp=on&as_sdts=21&hl=en

Eric62
03-31-2010, 02:34 PM
You can read it here: http://www.atypon-link.com/PPI/doi/abs/10.1592/phco.25.5.762.63580?%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3EcookieSet=1&journalCode=phco

I did an advanced search on google scholar.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=creatine&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=Pharmacotherapy&as_ylo=2005&as_yhi=2006&as_sdt=1.&as_sdtp=on&as_sdts=21&hl=en

You Sir are fucking good :)
I'll have to look further into this google scholar.
Thank you. I appreciate people that show me something interesting and educational.

So the article basically says that despite only anecdotal reports, there is a connection between creatine and Atrial Fibrilation.

For those that live in a test tube this article will be meaningless.
For those who live in the real world, IMO you should use the same caution with creatine that you would with ephedrine, alcohol, anti-histamines, AAS, bronchodilators, ect. All can offer benefits, but all can cause adverse effects as well...

Whisper
03-31-2010, 03:20 PM
You Sir are fucking good :)
I'll have to look further into this google scholar.
Thank you. I appreciate people that show me something interesting and educational.

So the article basically says that despite only anecdotal reports, there is a connection between creatine and Atrial Fibrilation.

For those that live in a test tube this article will be meaningless.
For those who live in the real world, IMO you should use the same caution with creatine that you would with ephedrine, alcohol, anti-histamines, AAS, bronchodilators, ect. All can offer benefits, but all can cause adverse effects as well...

Always use caution with pretty much anything you put in your body. That being the case, the article is, as you've said, a case report and recap of a series of anecdotal reports. There are no experimental controls imposed, and thus, there is as likely a chance as not that extraneous variables contributed to the health problems (in this case, lone atrial fibrillation).

I'm definitely not saying creatine couldn't/doesn't cause health problems. Just that case studies are seen as completely exploratory for a reason--they provide a great starting point for future research in the area.

alkemyst
03-31-2010, 03:21 PM
You Sir are fucking good :)
I'll have to look further into this google scholar.
Thank you. I appreciate people that show me something interesting and educational.

So the article basically says that despite only anecdotal reports, there is a connection between creatine and Atrial Fibrilation.

For those that live in a test tube this article will be meaningless.
For those who live in the real world, IMO you should use the same caution with creatine that you would with ephedrine, alcohol, anti-histamines, AAS, bronchodilators, ect. All can offer benefits, but all can cause adverse effects as well...

In other words, be careful out there kids...water can kill you too.

purbeast0
03-31-2010, 03:41 PM
I've tried DPS before but thought that they were pricey. I have been using Supplement Whorehouse www.supplementwarehouse.com, but they are slow and shipping is pricey, and their website sucks ass. I did love their price-matching feature, though. My new fav is Prosource.net. They seem to have everything and ship quickly and cheaply.

everything on that site that I order costs $5 - $10 more than it does on dpsnutrition.

BlackTigers
03-31-2010, 03:45 PM
You Sir are fucking good :)
I'll have to look further into this google scholar.
Thank you. I appreciate people that show me something interesting and educational.

So the article basically says that despite only anecdotal reports, there is a connection between creatine and Atrial Fibrilation.

For those that live in a test tube this article will be meaningless.
For those who live in the real world, IMO you should use the same caution with creatine that you would with ephedrine, alcohol, anti-histamines, AAS, bronchodilators, ect. All can offer benefits, but all can cause adverse effects as well...

what happens if you take ephedrine,creatine, anti-histamines, a bronchio-dialator, and drink all in the same day?

im dead. :p

The Sauce
03-31-2010, 03:51 PM
OK Doctor Sauce, as a physician I'm sure you have access to Pharmacotherapy, issue 2005;25:762-764.
I haven't read the article (as I'm a medical outsider), but it is used as a reference for Lone atrial fibrillation associated with creatine monohydrate supplementation.

Nice find. I'll try to give it a full read. This would be useful to me since I get a lot of ectopy as well (but no a. fib yet).

I read the abstract in the link. It reminds me of the case report about creatine causing kidney failure. There was a similar case report of one young person who presented in kidney failure that was thought to be caused by creatine. It turned out that he was on like 24 supplements in total and so they could not definitively attribute it to the creatine, but the authors tried to anyway... Hopefully the full article lists his entire supplement regimen or any other confounding variables. Even so, it is hard to prove causality based on a case report. I'll get around to it as soon as I can.

crt1530
03-31-2010, 04:45 PM
everything on that site that I order costs $5 - $10 more than it does on dpsnutrition.

The Sauce probably has a financial interest in that site. If you want brand name supplements, you really should order from Bodybuilding.com. They will price match to any site and have the fastest shipping of any place I've bought from. If you want supplements without marketing mark-up, go to TrueProtein and feel free to use my kick-back discount code.

The Sauce
03-31-2010, 08:30 PM
what happens if you take ephedrine,creatine, anti-histamines, a bronchio-dialator, and drink all in the same day?

im dead. :p

Burst into flames, I'd guess.

The Sauce
03-31-2010, 08:30 PM
everything on that site that I order costs $5 - $10 more than it does on dpsnutrition.

Thanks for the tip. Haven't checked them in a while. I'll be sure to take another look when my next order comes up.

The Sauce
03-31-2010, 08:33 PM
The Sauce probably has a financial interest in that site. If you want brand name supplements, you really should order from Bodybuilding.com. They will price match to any site and have the fastest shipping of any place I've bought from. If you want supplements without marketing mark-up, go to TrueProtein and feel free to use my kick-back discount code.

CRT - I love you. And I am not ashamed to let everyone here know it...socks pulled all the way up and everything :D I wish you only the best, brother lifter. If I tried to deadlift 600# my L3-4 disk would eject from my spine at 80mph.

PS - Everyone, if you haven't tried Trueprotein.com, I have it from a reliable source that it is freakin awesome. CRT takes it and he deadlifts more than my whole family.

skace
04-13-2010, 02:42 PM
I need to buy more protein, so I get side tracked on "pre-workout" supplements, what are your guys thoughts on products like this:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/usp/jacked.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/gn/super.html

I've never taken anything like creatine.

alkemyst
04-13-2010, 03:16 PM
I need to buy more protein, so I get side tracked on "pre-workout" supplements, what are your guys thoughts on products like this:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/usp/jacked.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/gn/super.html

I've never taken anything like creatine.

What are you looking to accomplish?

I don't have experience with those two, but some pre-workout drinks are pretty damn good for energy.

I like creatine as well, it's cheap and effective.

skace
04-13-2010, 05:01 PM
Not really sure what I'm looking to accomplish, I work out at night and could use the extra energy. Right now I don't even drink caffeine at all so that could be an issue also. I suppose I'm just kind of curious who uses pre-workout type drinks of those nature and whether they really work. Or would I be better off just getting some pure creatine and trying that out. I suppose I'm more concerned that my lack of supplements could be slowing my progress if these are very effective.

Eric62
04-13-2010, 06:00 PM
I started using Jacked 3D about a month ago. Presently I mix 1 scoop in with 50 grams vanilla whey, 8oz (1/2 can) Monster Java tea, and 8oz NOS. I start sipping on it 1 hour pre-workout.
I like the taste and boost of this combination...

Lamont Burns
04-13-2010, 06:14 PM
I need to buy more protein, so I get side tracked on "pre-workout" supplements, what are your guys thoughts on products like this:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/usp/jacked.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/gn/super.html

I've never taken anything like creatine.

creatine and those 2 products are miles apart. as far as jacked goes, you said you workout at night? jacked is not for you. caffeine and 1, 3 dimeth together are powerful and will keep you awake. also many people crash hard from 1, 3.

as far as superpump goes, they call it superdump for a reason... but that's fixed supposedly. for the money it's a waste. you can buy caffeine pills for shitload less if that's what you're looking for and buy bulk 1,3 caps as well.

you are not compromising anything regarding workout potential by NOT using these products.

try creatine mono, take a fish oil and perhaps vit d3. add to this slowwwwwwly. you want to boost your workout, eat a banana and some oatmeal mixed with whey.

Lamont Burns
04-13-2010, 06:18 PM
NOS! Human horsepower. I drink this once a year in gross quantities for a long binge golf/drink weekend in north Wisconsin. We drink it like hooligans, no idea if it works.

alkemyst
04-13-2010, 07:22 PM
Not really sure what I'm looking to accomplish, I work out at night and could use the extra energy. Right now I don't even drink caffeine at all so that could be an issue also. I suppose I'm just kind of curious who uses pre-workout type drinks of those nature and whether they really work. Or would I be better off just getting some pure creatine and trying that out. I suppose I'm more concerned that my lack of supplements could be slowing my progress if these are very effective.

Well creatine will not give you 'energy'. It helps definitely with a nice pump and I find I lift better.

It's a whole can of worms here talking supplements. I believe in them, but like anything moderation is the key.

I am currently on an Ephedrine / Caffeine / EGCg / Aspirin stack. (24mg/200mg/400mg/81mg). Some said the aspirin is too risky, but I need to be on NSAIDS anyway right now so it's not really adding to it.

I take this three times a day and I am good to go at 6am or earlier workouts.

I make sure I get some whey and oatmeal in, along with creatine prior to my workout (30-60mins). Post workout I have a scoop of maltodextrose, a scoop of casein, and a scoop of whey. To this I also add some more creatine and 10g of glutamine.

A balanced B complex and some B6 I also take in the morning.

I can't say I am ever lacking energy until I am ready for bed.

I tried some of the NO products and they were good, but many of them are pretty damn expensive. ECA is dirt cheap.

I wouldn't stay on it more than 3-4 months though.

skace
04-13-2010, 07:54 PM
Alright interesting, thanks. I'll try straight creatine then.

what's maltodextrose heh.

skace
04-13-2010, 08:12 PM
Ok how about a different question, do any of you guys put anything weird in your shakes/smoothies besides protein. Like Acai or any of that shit?

Lamont Burns
04-13-2010, 08:19 PM
Acia is hype, a strong antioxidant yes but nothing worth what people market and price it as.

When I was gaining weight, I would put a banana, oats, protein, whole milk, hershey's syrup and perhaps a scoop of ice cream in a shake. It's a shit ton of calories, if you need them that is.

Malto is a quick digesting carb. Some people believe it's essential post WO, some don't. There's theories about insulin spikes and other bullshit PWO that is essential.

Don't bother with glutamine, you'd have to mainline it to see any benefits. If you want to educate yourself read articles written by Alan Aragon.

Lamont Burns
04-13-2010, 08:20 PM
Just take creatine mono for a few weeks and see if it works for you. It's not for everyone, some don't get anything out of it.

... and get off my avatar!

skace
04-13-2010, 08:27 PM
Hahah, I have avatars and sigs disabled so I don't even remember what it is, I think it's like a play button or something.

skace
04-13-2010, 08:36 PM
This is what I'm looking to buy:

Higher Power Micronized Creatine, 500 Grams
Optimum 100% Whey Protein, 5 Lbs., Extreme Milk Chocolate
Promax Promax Bars, Box Of 12, Bodybuilding.com Variety Pack
Optimum Opti-Men, 180 Tablets

The bars are for when I go hiking, just a 'what the hell' purchase.

Lamont Burns
04-13-2010, 09:03 PM
Looks fine, I've used all those brands with success, even the promax bars treated exactly the same way, what the hell kinda thing.

alkemyst
04-14-2010, 05:50 AM
Acia is hype, a strong antioxidant yes but nothing worth what people market and price it as.

When I was gaining weight, I would put a banana, oats, protein, whole milk, hershey's syrup and perhaps a scoop of ice cream in a shake. It's a shit ton of calories, if you need them that is.

Malto is a quick digesting carb. Some people believe it's essential post WO, some don't. There's theories about insulin spikes and other bullshit PWO that is essential.

Don't bother with glutamine, you'd have to mainline it to see any benefits. If you want to educate yourself read articles written by Alan Aragon.

do you just google this crap quickly to try and defy me?

There probably is a pretty good reason many docs prescribe glutamine for serious conditions.

I don't know what you mean by mainlining, but yes you need more than 10g or so a day to get major benefits and yes that does add up.

I think a good target for those in serious need is about 40g a day.

I'd get some more experience under your belt prior to setting yourself as an expert.

OP, with creatine I like to load it for faster results...in the end since you will be taking it everyday the loading phase is optional.

I take it 5x a day 5g a time during the first week. I just mix it with my protein.

alkemyst
04-14-2010, 05:53 AM
This is what I'm looking to buy:

Higher Power Micronized Creatine, 500 Grams
Optimum 100% Whey Protein, 5 Lbs., Extreme Milk Chocolate
Promax Promax Bars, Box Of 12, Bodybuilding.com Variety Pack
Optimum Opti-Men, 180 Tablets

The bars are for when I go hiking, just a 'what the hell' purchase.

I'd skip the bars. They add up in cost and usually include a lot of extras I don't need/want.

I use the Higher Power stuff. Good and cheap.

Keep in mind sometimes the Optimum Whey comes in a bag and not a container...I think that's only the 10lbs now though.

The opti-men is a good multi. Best to use a gold card and/or try for a 50% off sale/BOGO.

Lamont Burns
04-14-2010, 08:25 AM
do you just google this crap quickly to try and defy me?

There probably is a pretty good reason many docs prescribe glutamine for serious conditions.

I don't know what you mean by mainlining, but yes you need more than 10g or so a day to get major benefits and yes that does add up.

I think a good target for those in serious need is about 40g a day.

I'd get some more experience under your belt prior to setting yourself as an expert.

OP, with creatine I like to load it for faster results...in the end since you will be taking it everyday the loading phase is optional.

I take it 5x a day 5g a time during the first week. I just mix it with my protein.

No, I didn't google it. If you spent some time educating yourself you'd know. I didn't qualify myself as an expert. Creatine loading has been proved as unnecessary for years, same with glutamine in your dosage as a sports supplement.

Mainlining, sorry you don't get it.

I actually link normally to the journals/articles I find this information from, but this stuff is years old and a lost cause.

In another thread you stated a methylated prohormone as a non-risk essentially. That's just farce.

I spend just as much time lifting as I do reading and educating. Simple shit is simple shit.

alkemyst
04-14-2010, 10:17 AM
sorry I was just a pharmacy major.

Also I never said anything has no-risk. Even simple vitamins carry them.

Like I said though...you don't have to load it since you will be on it a while. Loading does help though IMHO. As in anything health related YMMV.

Good luck with the the google-research though.

Lamont Burns
04-14-2010, 10:55 AM
lol, OK.