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moshquerade
11-23-2009, 04:59 PM
Maybe this is why eating turkey makes us sleepy.... veeeeeeeery sleepy.

Posted: Monday, 23 November 2009 12:20PM

Is there Poison in Your Turkey?


NEW YORK (WCBS 880) -- Arsenic in your Thanksgiving Day turkey? Could be...

It's actually contained in an additive to poultry feed called Roxarsone. Long Island Congressman Steve Israel says it's there for only one reason.

"It helps big poultry producers make more money. It's injected into birds like this one to speed the growth of the bird and to keep the poultry looking pink in the grocer's freezer," said Israel.

The Congressman has introduced legislation that would ban the use of the potentially dangerous additive. He points out that only meat products labeled "USDA Organic" are guaranteed not to contain Roxarsone.
http://www.wcbs880.com/Is-there-Poison-in-Your-Turkey-/5739395

Sea Moose
11-23-2009, 05:02 PM
i am sure your turkey tastes fine mosh....

destrekor
11-23-2009, 05:07 PM
Maybe this is why eating turkey makes us sleepy.... veeeeeeeery sleepy.


http://www.wcbs880.com/Is-there-Poison-in-Your-Turkey-/5739395

You do know the rumored reason why turkey "makes people sleepy", yes? Tryptophan.

And I'm also here to say, even that is false. Most, if not all other meats, contain similar levels of Tryptophan. And even bananas contain Tryptophan, of which is an Essential Amino Acid.

There is truth to the claim that Tryptophan, and the metabolites of Tryptophan, can cause drowsiness, the real truth to why many people get so sleep after Thanksgiving is not due to the turkey, it is due to the gorging. We consume so much food in a single sitting, often all high-carb foods, that it causes insulin spikes and drops the blood sugar level, which means the brain is running on low glycogen levels, and thus "running on empty", which results in a great deal of drowsiness that is often very very hard to fight.

moshquerade
11-23-2009, 05:17 PM
You do know the rumored reason why turkey "makes people sleepy", yes? Tryptophan.

And I'm also here to say, even that is false. Most, if not all other meats, contain similar levels of Tryptophan. And even bananas contain Tryptophan, of which is an Essential Amino Acid.

There is truth to the claim that Tryptophan, and the metabolites of Tryptophan, can cause drowsiness, the real truth to why many people get so sleep after Thanksgiving is not due to the turkey, it is due to the gorging. We consume so much food in a single sitting, often all high-carb foods, that it causes insulin spikes and drops the blood sugar level, which means the brain is running on low glycogen levels, and thus "running on empty", which results in a great deal of drowsiness that is often very very hard to fight.

I also know that there isn't enough arsenic in turkey or cyanide in apple seeds to ever cause a problem. Unless you eat a truckload or something. :P



i am sure your turkey tastes fine mosh....
It's spectacular. :D

spidey07
11-23-2009, 05:21 PM
A quick google search shows that Roxarsone is pissed out by the bird. Arsenic is not in your turkey, sounds like this rep got sold some alarmist "buy organic" nutjob. Or he is one himself.

DrPizza
11-23-2009, 06:04 PM
Ummm, unless I'm mistaken, Roxarsone is organic & could be allowed to be fed to organically grown turkeys; I may be mistaken on this though.

Furthermore, if the amount of "poison" found in these turkeys is found to be harmless, then Mr. Congressman is simply fear mongering (and probably to help support someone who made some donations to him.) Modern farming techniques are being pushed to produce more and more food, safely, to feed the ever increasing world population. Already, one billion people are going hungry, and this congressman is targeting a harmless chemical that's been shown to improve yields?

FoBoT
11-23-2009, 06:06 PM
a little arsenic won't hurt you
too much

Newbian
11-23-2009, 06:18 PM
I just love the fact that since we breed them and inject them with so much crap to be so large they can't even mate naturally anymore...poor fat birdies.

AbAbber2k
11-23-2009, 06:20 PM
It's spectacular. :D

Gobble, gobble!

techs
11-23-2009, 06:22 PM
Every time I hear about a dangerous substance in our food that's OK because it's in such small amounts, it makes me wonder what the cumulative effect of all these substances is.

DrPizza
11-23-2009, 06:34 PM
I just love the fact that since we breed them and inject them with so much crap to be so large they can't even mate naturally anymore...poor fat birdies.

That's okay - a lot of chickens that you eat are a cross between two different types of chickens. The chickens that you eat wouldn't be able to reproduce even by artificial insemination - by they time they reach sexual maturity, they'd be so overweight that they'd die of congestive heart failure. (Cornish cross can reach weights of 8 pounds in 8 weeks; chickens aren't usually sexually mature until 6 months of age or longer. I managed to keep a couple alive until about 5 months of age, but they died of congestive heart failure. Ditto my 54 pound turkey.)

Gibsons
11-23-2009, 06:43 PM
Ummm, unless I'm mistaken, Roxarsone is organic & could be allowed to be fed to organically grown turkeys; I may be mistaken on this though.

Furthermore, if the amount of "poison" found in these turkeys is found to be harmless, then Mr. Congressman is simply fear mongering (and probably to help support someone who made some donations to him.) Modern farming techniques are being pushed to produce more and more food, safely, to feed the ever increasing world population. Already, one billion people are going hungry, and this congressman is targeting a harmless chemical that's been shown to improve yields?

I suspect the turkey farmers in Mr Congressman's district haven't contributed properly to the campaign.

FoBoT
11-23-2009, 06:47 PM
most grains, fruit and vegetables we eat are hybrids, why not animals too

TallBill
11-23-2009, 06:50 PM
I don't have the energy to care about such things. I'm not scared of death, rapists, or flesh eating disease.

destrekor
11-23-2009, 06:55 PM
Every time I hear about a dangerous substance in our food that's OK because it's in such small amounts, it makes me wonder what the cumulative effect of all these substances is.

We too grow fatter faster..
Oh wait.

They've tricked us all into gluttony! They gonna eat us!

AbAbber2k
11-23-2009, 06:59 PM
I don't have the energy to care about such things. I'm not scared of death, rapists, or flesh eating disease.

This.

Even if the media hadn't desensitized me to all the dangers of the world... life is too short to freak out about EVERYTHING.

Pass me the turkey... and that plastic bottle of water.

destrekor
11-23-2009, 07:00 PM
dp
Ooops son of a... posting on my droid and not payig attention.

RU482
11-23-2009, 10:54 PM
are you aware that just the right amount of arsenic added to poultry feed causes the birds to grow larger? iirc, if the fat of a bird is yellow, it has been fed arsenic enhanced feed.

Schadenfroh
11-23-2009, 11:02 PM
sounds like this rep got sold some alarmist "buy organic" nutjob. Or he is one himself.

Agreed, I would not doubt that the rep is one of those "locally grown produce" people as well. Both are highly inefficient (unless your local area is very well suited for certain crops to be grown in mass quantities for export as well as local consumption).

cliftonite
11-23-2009, 11:03 PM
That's okay - a lot of chickens that you eat are a cross between two different types of chickens. The chickens that you eat wouldn't be able to reproduce even by artificial insemination - by they time they reach sexual maturity, they'd be so overweight that they'd die of congestive heart failure. (Cornish cross can reach weights of 8 pounds in 8 weeks; chickens aren't usually sexually mature until 6 months of age or longer. I managed to keep a couple alive until about 5 months of age, but they died of congestive heart failure. Ditto my 54 pound turkey.)

Can you eat birds that die like that?

WelshBloke
11-23-2009, 11:43 PM
maybe this is why eating turkey makes us sleepy.... Veeeeeeeery sleepy.

:\


i don't have the energy to care about such things.

:d

Newbian
11-23-2009, 11:46 PM
They've tricked us all into gluttony! They gonna eat us!

http://cbullitt.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/soylent-green.jpg

guyver01
11-24-2009, 01:50 AM
Upon entering the food chain, organic arsenics are progressively metabolised to a less toxic form of arsenic through a process of methylation.

Unless the bird has been massively injected with this substance, and unless you're eating tons of this... it's harmless.

Zebo
11-18-2010, 03:37 AM
Yes there is poison in almost all the food you eat these days. Unless organic or you hunt/fish you are getting poisoned/hormoned/sterioded/pesticided up.

Moonbeam
11-18-2010, 03:38 AM
I got an organic heritage turkey for about 56 dollars.

zerocool84
11-18-2010, 03:38 AM
Yes there is poison in almost all the food you eat these days. Unless organic or you hunt you are getting poisoned/hornoned/sterioded/pesticided up.

Even organic has poisons in it. Too many people think organic food means no pesticides or poisons.

guyver01
11-18-2010, 03:39 AM
I got an organic heritage turkey for about 56 dollars.

Awesome. I got a Store Bought 15lb turkey for $6

Me Save $50. Me Win

Zebo
11-18-2010, 03:40 AM
Even organic has poisons in it. Too many people think organic food means no pesticides.

Some does some doesnt and not near the degree of shit from tyson/cargill etc.

zerocool84
11-18-2010, 03:42 AM
Some does some doesnt and not near the degree of shit from tyson/cargill etc.

How do you know it's not to the same degree? No one tests for that. For all we know they'd need more since modern pesticides are better than the organic pesticides people use so they have to use more poison for the same amount compared to the modern stuff.

Zebo
11-18-2010, 03:43 AM
Awesome. I got a Store Bought 15lb turkey for $6

Me Save $50. Me Win

Animal didnt win. Caged in total darkness with feces all over it for it's entire life to feed you.:(

He was also injected and drank roids could not walk etc.

guyver01
11-18-2010, 03:43 AM
Animal didnt win. Caged in total darkness with feces all over it for it's entire life to feed you.:(


hopefully that suffering made it's muscles nice and tender, and its flesh juicy.

He was also injected and drank roids

Sweet! Now i don't have to Brine it. I prefer my turkey brined in roids.

Moonbeam
11-18-2010, 04:06 AM
I prefer my turkey brined in roids.

Gosh, not everybody can stuff a turkey up their ass.

Zebo
11-18-2010, 04:06 AM
I got an organic heritage turkey for about 56 dollars.

I shoot mine for a cost of about $1 not including gas, whiskey and other sundries to make day fun. Sitting under a tree for four to six hours gobbling gets old quick unless you spice it up.

Zebo
11-18-2010, 04:07 AM
hopefully that suffering made it's muscles nice and tender, and its flesh juicy.



Sweet! Now i don't have to Brine it. I prefer my turkey brined in roids.

Are you a sociopath? No compassion for animals is first sign.

Moonbeam
11-18-2010, 04:09 AM
I shoot mine for a cost of about $1 not including gas, whiskey and other sundries to make day fun. Sitting under a tree for four to six hours gobbling gets old quick unless you spice it up.

Sounds like a gas. I thought about bow hunting them but haven't. I don't think I would eat meat at all if I had to kill it.

Moonbeam
11-18-2010, 04:13 AM
Are you a sociopath? No compassion for animals is first sign.

Yeah, but having a butt that gobbles is also a sure sign.

Zebo
11-18-2010, 04:19 AM
Sounds like a gas. I thought about bow hunting them but haven't. I don't think I would eat meat at all if I had to kill it.

They live free like they are supposed to. You are just another predator of many that take them for your needs. Fish is easy and if you put them in live well and put ice on them they basically don't feel a thing just pass out and die..., I stopped deer hunting though. It's the eyes man. Ones that get away..suffering in woods for who knows how long:(

Also all natural not steroids/antibiotics etc. I have a lifetime hunting and fishing license since like 7 so maybe desensitized. Main thing is is to not make them suffer needlessly which can be hard to do for noobs...Winged quail tear off his head etc.

Moonbeam
11-18-2010, 04:27 AM
They live free like they are supposed to. You are just another predator of many that take them for your needs. Fish is easy and if you put them in live well and put ice on them they basically don't feel a thing just pass out and die..., I stopped deer hunting though. It's the eyes man.

Also all natural not steroids/antibiotics etc. I have a lifetime hunting and fishing license since like 7 so maybe desensitized. Main thing is is to not make them suffer needlessly. Winged quail tear off his head etc.

Oh shit, steroids, steroids. I thought hemorrhoids.

guyver01
11-18-2010, 04:35 AM
Are you a sociopath? No compassion for animals is first sign.

nope. but... then again .. i think people who put animal rights over human survival to be psychotic.. so.. to each their own.

Zebo
11-18-2010, 04:45 AM
nope. but... then again .. i think people who put animal rights over human survival to be psychotic.. so.. to each their own.

Yeah. But mega corporate farming/ranching practices are putting profit over our health and animal rights. There is no need to treat birds the way they do and the huge bacteria counts and various growth hormones are not really good for us. Money is good for them. The alternatives are not much more. Places like this:
\http://www.polyfacefarms.com/

offer all natual range animals for about 50-100% more.

guyver01
11-18-2010, 04:59 AM
The alternatives are not much more. Offer all natual range animals for about 50-100% more.

but.. what if i dont want to pay 50-100% more.

$6 for my turkey is quite enough.
$56 for my turkey... is out of the question.

unless the turkey comes stuffed with gold bars... then it might be worth it ;)

ahenkel
11-18-2010, 06:15 AM
Not having turkey going to have duck this year. My own straight from the farm.

brainhulk
11-18-2010, 06:39 AM
wrong thread

SP33Demon
11-18-2010, 08:49 AM
Organics taste better anyway. I'd never trust the mega corporations when it comes to my freaking food.

Moonbeam
11-18-2010, 01:35 PM
http://www.diestelturkey.com/products_the_american_heirloom.htm

Codewiz
11-18-2010, 02:53 PM
Organics taste better anyway. I'd never trust the mega corporations when it comes to my freaking food.

That has pretty much been proven false.

If you want to buy for taste, buy local. It might or might not be organic. I buy all my produce through a CSA. It is farmed mostly organic(he organically farms but if the choice is lose the whole crop to a pest or use a synthetic chemical, he does what he has to).

Best produce ever. I also buy beef shares locally. They are primarily grass fed and given corn the final week or two of life. Best tasting beef with no need for hormones or antibiotics.

But taste has nothing to do with organic or not. It has to do with being fresh from knowledgable farmers.

DivideBYZero
11-18-2010, 02:59 PM
DHMO is way more dangerous than Roxarsone.

mb
11-18-2010, 03:00 PM
It's spectacular. :D
I would like to eat your spectacular turkey.

lozina
11-18-2010, 03:07 PM
I also got a heritage pasture raised turkey. It's from a local farm and I go there almost every weekend to buy fresh eggs, meats and produce - all organically grown. And while there I spend a few minutes to watch the flock of bourbon red turkeys chase each other around on the field. I know one of them will end up in our oven next week :)

It's expensive but the way I see it is I'm paying for food the way food is supposed to be - the way it was naturally grown for centuries before modern chemicals, fertilizers and genetic engineer came along. These advancements were not intended to increase quality or flavor of food their whole point is increased yield. But at what cost? What long term affects do these chemical compounds have as they accumulate in your body and mix with each other? No one knows and I don't want to be the guinea pig. So while they can offer you some food at reduced costs it's costs saved by someone cutting corners somewhere. There's always a trade off.

The same people who will say something like "yeah I paid $6 for a turkey while you paid $57 so I am smarter than you" might then have a conversation with someone else arguing how cool the $70,000 BMW is while thinking the $24,000 Honda is a piece of garbage they'd never be caught dead driving - yet they both get you from point A to point B don't they? The same way both birds give you something to eat?

But it's obviously not as simple as that, now is it?

daw123
11-18-2010, 03:08 PM
I'm not that bothered since I don't like Turkey. Duck and gammon for me at Christmas and New Year.

mb
11-18-2010, 03:17 PM
I'm not that bothered since I don't like Turkey. Duck and gammon for me at Christmas and New Year.
http://4**************.com/_-lDuH1Xdfl0/SUl4m9PRgxI/AAAAAAAAAYU/kzn1vC69vGo/s320/Link+to+the+past+Ganon.png
Mmm tasty ganon

TwiceOver
11-18-2010, 03:25 PM
Not sure what my employer is giving us this year. An arsenic laced turkey would be one way to hand out pink slips...

Nintendesert
11-18-2010, 03:26 PM
I don't care about toxins or poisons, it's why I have a liver and a few other organs.

DrPizza
11-18-2010, 05:02 PM
Yeah. But mega corporate farming/ranching practices are putting profit over our health and animal rights. There is no need to treat birds the way they do and the huge bacteria counts and various growth hormones are not really good for us. Money is good for them. The alternatives are not much more. Places like this:
\http://www.polyfacefarms.com/

offer all natual range animals for about 50-100% more.


Ahhh, so you admit you have no clue wtf you're talking about??
There are NO growth hormones added to turkeys in the US. There are NO growth hormones added to chickens in the US.

moshquerade
11-18-2010, 05:46 PM
Ahhh, so you admit you have no clue wtf you're talking about??
There are NO growth hormones added to turkeys in the US. There are NO growth hormones added to chickens in the US.
I didn't know that, but I do know I've seen packages of chicken in the store with stickers claiming, "no steroids, no hormones" contained in this chicken. So that makes one believe there are some prepared that way.

Nintendesert
11-18-2010, 06:24 PM
I didn't know that, but I do know I've seen packages of chicken in the store with stickers claiming, "no steroids, no hormones" contained in this chicken. So that makes one believe there are some prepared that way.



Probably because like the "Organic" label, some suckers out there are willing to pay more for it. And the label would be accurate, just doesn't mention it's all that way...

DrPizza
11-18-2010, 07:27 PM
I didn't know that, but I do know I've seen packages of chicken in the store with stickers claiming, "no steroids, no hormones" contained in this chicken. So that makes one believe there are some prepared that way.

Marketing geniuses. Because one brand put that on their chicken, consumers are fooled into thinking that the other brands must contain steroids or hormones. It's just a marketing trick, and it works.

moshquerade
11-18-2010, 07:42 PM
Marketing geniuses. Because one brand put that on their chicken, consumers are fooled into thinking that the other brands must contain steroids or hormones. It's just a marketing trick, and it works.
Yep, agreed. You don't see that on packages of beef though... hmmm...

Zebo
11-18-2010, 08:26 PM
Ahhh, so you admit you have no clue wtf you're talking about??
There are NO growth hormones added to turkeys in the US. There are NO growth hormones added to chickens in the US.

I meant in general. It's not steroids or hormones with chickens that's for cattle. It's genetic freaks, locked down and antibiotics with chickens/turkeys. Still it's stuffing shit in your piehole.

Zebo
11-18-2010, 08:27 PM
Yep, agreed. You don't see that on packages of beef though... hmmm...

Beef is injected with estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, zeranol, trenbolone acetate, and melengestrol acetate.

http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Factsheet/Diet/fs37.hormones.cfm

guyver01
11-18-2010, 08:33 PM
Beef is injected with estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, zeranol, trenbolone acetate, and melengestrol acetate.


and.. off the top of your head... can YOU tell me why that's bad? or are you parroting something you saw on a website.


I can have 50 people convinced dihydrogen monoxide is bad for you just by telling them:

Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:

Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.


And then make them feel stupid because this is... water.

Zebo
11-18-2010, 08:56 PM
and.. off the top of your head... can YOU tell me why that's bad? or are you parroting something you saw on a website.


I can have 50 people convinced dihydrogen monoxide is bad for you just by telling them:

Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:

Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.


And then make them feel stupid because this is... water.

Jury is still out. We rush stuff without testing proper due to $$$. If people know the stuff caused cancer/thyriod disease and whatnot it would not approved for use. However it's illegal in places like Europe because of plausibility of health issues.

DES that was used to fatten cattle and chickens was found to cause cancer risk in humans so they banned it finally. DDT similar fate and much more. How much of these chemicals will have same fate? I don't play Russian roulette or eat unknown.

Regardless while there is some debate on chemicals there is none on unhumane filthy treatment of animals on huge commercial farms. That alone is enough to keep me away.

guyver01
11-18-2010, 09:09 PM
there is none on unhumane filthy treatment of animals on huge commercial farms. That alone is enough to keep me away.

and... have you visited every farm used for every product you purchase? or are you another sheep who bleets when PETA says to?

yhelothar
11-18-2010, 09:47 PM
You do know the rumored reason why turkey "makes people sleepy", yes? Tryptophan.

And I'm also here to say, even that is false. Most, if not all other meats, contain similar levels of Tryptophan. And even bananas contain Tryptophan, of which is an Essential Amino Acid.

There is truth to the claim that Tryptophan, and the metabolites of Tryptophan, can cause drowsiness, the real truth to why many people get so sleep after Thanksgiving is not due to the turkey, it is due to the gorging. We consume so much food in a single sitting, often all high-carb foods, that it causes insulin spikes and drops the blood sugar level, which means the brain is running on low glycogen levels, and thus "running on empty", which results in a great deal of drowsiness that is often very very hard to fight.

It's just food coma in general, which is caused by both tryptophan and high carb foods.
High carb foods actually intensifies the tryptophan effect, as the insulin spike makes the tryptophan/other amino acid ratio go up, hence producing more of the calming serotonin in the brain.

DrPizza
11-18-2010, 10:10 PM
Jury is still out. We rush stuff without testing proper due to $$$. If people know the stuff caused cancer/thyriod disease and whatnot it would not approved for use. However it's illegal in places like Europe because of plausibility of health issues.

DES that was used to fatten cattle and chickens was found to cause cancer risk in humans so they banned it finally. DDT similar fate and much more. How much of these chemicals will have same fate? I don't play Russian roulette or eat unknown.

Regardless while there is some debate on chemicals there is none on unhumane filthy treatment of animals on huge commercial farms. That alone is enough to keep me away.

It's a pretty simple argument that the ban on DDT has killed far more humans than DDT ever did.

zerocool84
11-18-2010, 11:26 PM
Marketing geniuses. Because one brand put that on their chicken, consumers are fooled into thinking that the other brands must contain steroids or hormones. It's just a marketing trick, and it works.

Yep, agreed. You don't see that on packages of beef though... hmmm...

lol I just read a package of pre-packaged wings I have from Foster Farms and on it has a big seal that says, "Does not contain hormones or steroids" as an obvious selling point, and has a little asterisk, turn the package over and the asterisk says, "Federal regulations prohibits the use of hormones in chicken" :D

Advertising at it's best.

guyver01
11-18-2010, 11:30 PM
pre-packaged wings I have from Foster Farms and on it has a big seal that says, "Does not contain hormones or steroids" as an obvious selling point, and has a little asterisk, turn the package over and the asterisk says, "Federal regulations prohibits the use of hormones in chicken"

LOL i'm gonna try that.

i'm gonna bottle some home made soda... and slap a sticker on it that says "Does not contain urine*" and in TINY TINY fineprint
"*soda doesn't contain urine"

zerocool84
11-18-2010, 11:33 PM
LOL i'm gonna try that.

i'm gonna bottle some home made soda... and slap a sticker on it that says "Does not contain urine*" and in TINY TINY fineprint
"*soda doesn't contain urine"

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

SagaLore
11-18-2010, 11:43 PM
It's spectacular. :D

Mosh, can I taste yours? :sneaky: